Is sexism/racism still an issue?
 

Just came across this article from 2014 which discusses the lack of diversity in airline cockpits. I was interested in seeing input from actual pilots to see if the things said in this article hold any weight. Have you seen any discrimination in hiring practices at your airline or is this a non-issue?

Airlines' flight decks lack diversity | TheHill

Lack of diversity does not equal racism/sexism.

I did not mean to imply that and apologize if I came off that way. To clarify, I was referring to the opening quote of the article if this is even a true quote.

"The chief pilot asked me to hire a black female pilot so we could check off a 'diversity' box on a reporting form so we could keep our government contracts," a human resources director of a mid-sized air cargo transport company told me last year at a pilot recruiting event. "Once I did hire that woman, the chief pilot came back to me and said to never hire another one [black female pilot] again. Things are gonna stay the way they've always been around here," she said.

I find all of that to be rather suspicious. Human Resources, not the chief pilot, would be more likely to know what "mix" of employees was required. Second, that's a rather boldly racist stance to take for a chief pilot. "Mid-sized air cargo transport company" could imply a LOT of places and is rather vague...

In general, no, this sort of thing does not happen from what I've seen in "mid-size" (500+ pilots) and up departments.

"The failure has in part contributed to the monolithic demography of U.S. ATPs and a culture of whiteness and masculinity in the flight deck."

Sorry, but with this sentence I cannot take the author of that piece seriously.

^^^lol. Agreed.

The comments posted at the end of this article are very sad and I hope this isn't the way the majority of our country feels. The problem is, it's difficult to determine if someone got hired or not hired based on whether they were a minority or not without having all the information. I'm sure we have all sat with someone in the cockpit who said they were not hired even with what seems to be extraordinary qualifications and for the captains, someone that was hired with zero jet PIC time even with thousands of applicants with PIC time out there. The problem is we just don't have all the info, we don't know the applicant's past, if there were any skeletons, how the interview went, etc. I'm sure a few qualified applicants have been passed over in the name of diversity, but I'm also certain more than a few qualified minorities have been passed over for the reasons mentioned in the article (if not in recent history, for sure prior to the 60's and 70's). I have heard managers in the past (not at airlines) say some pretty egregious things when they felt they were in good company. My point is we don't have all the info we need to make a determination of discrimination in either direction. I'd like to think it happens both directions and comes in a wash at the end.

Two separate things, not to be confused...

The traditional airline career path began in the military. Both military and airlines have long career pipelines and you cannot jump in or out in the middle. Today's senior widebody Captains began their journey in Vietnam.

Society has changed, and the military has followed suite, but the senior pilots of today reflect a snapshot of 1970's demographics. What you see there is 40 years time-late, and does not reflect opportunities today. Both the airlines and the military are falling all over themselves to hire non-whites and women, when they can find them.

If you pay attention to the younger pilots, you'll see much more diversity but still plenty of white males. Reason for that is that aviation is a long journey and usually starts with childhood interests. White males are more likely to be rural or suburban gear-heads, and to pursue technical education relevant to aviation. Woman tend to prefer white-collar education and work to technical fields, so the pool of interested minority/female applicants is limited just based on their own interests. I don't consider that to be a fault of the aviation industry, if there's a problem maybe society needs to provide better early education opportunities to some demographics.

The majority of female pilots tend to drop out of aviation, or take career off-ramps to raise kids. Their choice, but entirely understandable...it's a rough lifestyle with kids.

As far as cockpit culture, with the few rare exceptions that exist in any walk of life, you'll find it very welcoming and open to anyone (we even have trans pilots now, although I can't say they are warmly accepted just yet).

If you're interested and willing to do what it takes to get there, you'll have a good experience. Although you'll probably have to discuss politics you don't agree with at some point, but all of us have had that experience.

Great post rickair.

You're forgetting, however, that in today's society it's a crime that every occupation isn't populated in exact proportion with societal demographics. Not enough female scientists, not enough NFL coaches of color (never mind the player demographic -- that's illusory.) Not enough women in boardrooms. Not enough female law partners. This institutional sexism and racism needs to be rectified by any means necessary -- even if it means forcing some people to like the idea of flying airplanes and science. In the name of diversity.

No excuses will be tolerated.

:rolleyes:

It all depends on what side of the equation that you fall. Lots of variables there. You would have to see it from both sides to truly understand. This is something that no one can truly accomplish.

It is also highly dependent on corporate culture at specific companies. A fair amount of larger companies make a point of getting their "tokens" to address any implication of sexism/racism.

I have seen a fair amount of diversity at the smaller operators that I have worked at. Is there still sexism/racism? You bet, when not in an audience that demands "PC" behavior, there is still a lot of nasty rhetoric that follows the typical stereotypic attitudes. Day to day, probably not as much as in the past.

I find it hilarious that most people that deny the existence of racism/sexism are for the most part 100 % not in any of the affected groups.

Overall it might have faded or grown some over the years, it just something that if fairly ingrained in our culture, it's not anything that will fully go away any time soon.

Is sexism/racism still an issue?
 

No one is denying racism still exists. It exists in different forms. It happens in some very unpopular situations on a very large basis. Such as...black on white, black on Asian, and black on gay. All very largely unreported. Not a popular stat to address, but it's the truth.

And white males are the only ones that are expected to change their ways. We're the easiest to pick on. Sorry if I'm a little rough. I come from a large law enforcement family.

Both yours and Ricks's are excellent posts that all too many people want to ignore.

Sure, there WAS a time when the rationale of "we simply didn't think it was an option for us" was viable. That went away long ago......

"Equality means an equal chance, NOT an equal outcome".

Another truth/REALITY.

It was comical a few years back at WAI, there were some younger female pilots openly commenting about all the males there, and how messed up it was that males are allowed to attend. As in, saying it loud enough that plenty of people around can hear it.

Probatum Est!

I have the utmost respect for stewardesses.... giggity

I had a female roommate a few years back who, when I commented that I had attended WAI, was aghast at the prospect that women weren't immediately given the front of the line for all of the meet and greet's. She couldn't get over how "unfair" it was that women had to wait in line to talk to recruiters, like all the men did.

Of course, she was also the only first officer that I ever flew with who universally had a reputation with every captain that I knew for being the most incompetent and dangerous pilot that they had ever flown with. So, naturally her career depends on being pushed to the front of the line. That and her plastic surgery should allow her career to go far.

Haha, I once told a girl who commented "remember when this used to be about women?" that women didnt need these job fairs to get hired. She had nada

I don't remember if it was 2 or 3 years ago, but the recruiters at WAI were doing that, pulling the females to the front. There was a female RJ CA, one that's sucked up the dark decade like many others. When they tried to pull her to the front her response was along the lines of "nope, I'll wait in line like everyone else".

That's awesome.

I have to agree with you.

There are NOT a lot of African Americans that have Parents That can afford to send their kids to Embry Riddle, Dowling College, or any other Flying School.

It's too much money to learn and too much money lost as a CFI/CFII.

And most Blacks don't have the Academic Credentials to have achieved this career Path via the Military either (Army, Navy, Air Force, etc.)

My Parents didn't pay for my Tickets. My Wife paid for about 50%
Of It and Large Federal Income Tax Refunds paid for the rest. (Carnival Airlines Pilot Development Program)

I've never seen any Discrimination Practices from my POV.

I'm African American and I've been flying professionally since 1995
With Carnival Airlines as A Flight Engineer.....I'm now flying with one of the Top 3 Worldwide Cargo Carriers.

Never had a problem getting the jobs or the people I've flown with.

It's a very close brotherhood and most everyone welcomes you with open arms.......unless you demonstrate tendencies that may be UNSAFE....Then the outlook is different and would be different NO MATTER Waht Your Ethnic Persuasion.

Most white parents can't either.

I was stuck in the middle no mans land where my parents made too much money for me to qualify for student aid, but not enough to actually pay for everything themselves. :rolleyes:

That was my case as well, weird how that happened. I worked full time all through school as well to supplement my CFI income.

True, a sad reality.

See above.

Interesting enough, I was teaching at a school that had a relationship with OBAP. Many of the students that were coming through had parents that were a mix of airline pilots, lawyers, engineers, etc.

So they're part of an organization that's helping them get their multi and 100 hours ME ASAP to get them a job at a regional, with healthy financial backing.

IOW, they aren't really the ones needed a "leg up" so to speak to pursue the career.....

Where you born in Africa?

Flying is an expensive proposition that tends to omit and/or at some point, starve out all but the most able, lucky, or well sponsored people. Very few minorities ever take lessons and somehow its the airlines fault. Larger companies are forced to hire from the bus stop and place them into positions above their experience level. This action creates a lot more sexism and racism than otherwise would exist.

This will sound arrogant, but this thread is absolutely ridiculous and should be closed. Truth is not all females want to be pilots,lumberjacks, etc, and not all African Americans aspire to be scientist, pilots, lumberjacks, etc. Not all white men aspire to be pilots, lumberjacks, scientist, etc. SO to put a "number" on it and say this profession or that profession is not represented EQUALLY is absolutely NOT true. The truth is you can't put a number on any profession because no one really knows what percentage of what any race wants to do with their life.

When you start assigning numbers of how each race should be represented in each profession you breed resentment, hatred and in some cases racism. Worst then that for the minorities who have really paid their dues and worked hard to achieve their goals are not given the respect they deserve.

The liberals who started this thread will never be happy in how minorities are represented in aviation.

We should not "NOT HIRE or NOT INTERVIEW" someone based on their genitalia or skin color - as a matter of fact its against the law. But we should also not "HIRE or INTERVIEW" someone based on their skin color or genitalia.

Almost all men I know are intellectually well beyond this view of seeing people through such a narrow minded prism. Someday I hope the shallow liberals will catch up with us.

dutch747,
Let's not get bigoted against liberals, or for that matter conservatives who historically have not faired that well dealing with sexism/racism. After all our new president thinks it's a-ok "to grab em by the p*ssy". Blaming sexism/racism on liberals is a pretty ridiculous stretch.


The longer this thread continues, the more obvious it becomes that sexism/racism still is a prevalent attitude, no matter how loudly people deny it. It's like the old saying "some of my best friends are black".

What I can tell you is I know many "minorities" that have battled very hard in this career field to get the positions that they have attained, and they weren't given any favors to get there. They have worked very hard to ensure that the negative stereotypes of their groups are not perpetuated. Are there a few rotten apples out there? Sure there are, but it is easier to denigrate them based on their sex/race than their competence. That way you can cast that attitude on all members of their group.

I have seen lack of competence in white males, but you never hear derogatory remarks about them on the basis of their sex or color. If anything it is more accepted and you have to give "Joe" a chance!

As far as going to the OBAP or WAI job fairs when not being a member of the any of those groups, your not going to see me attending, even though WM's and anyone else for that matter are welcomed with open arms. Why? Respect. You guys do what you want, I don't care.

This thread s*cks. There is nothing new here only more of the status quo.



bye.

Yes, there is racism, sexism, and overt/implicit bias throughout American society...including whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, men, women, sexually confused, Christians, Atheists, and yes, professional pilots.

The bias among professional pilots (as a whole) against minorities is certainly less than it used to be, but it does still exist.

Does that mean all professional pilots are biased? No. Does it mean "the system" is biased? No, absolutely not. Are there greater socioeconomic factors that play a far greater role than bias? I would argue absolutely.

While reality can and should be acknowledged...let us also not go exaggerating occurance or impact like it is some sort of fundamental flaw.

Thanks for the helpful replies everyone. To clarify the original intent of this thread, it was not meant to imply that I expect equal representation among minorities or women in aviation. I simply wanted the opinions of the professionals on this board as to whether or not you believed there is discrimination in the hiring process at your airlines. Not really sure where dutch747 got the idea that I wanted equal representation in any field of work. Again, thanks for the helpful responses everyone.

Yes it does.

.....

I completely agree!

Well said. What ever happened to hiring the most qualified candidate for any job?

So a barber shop in North Philly that has nine employees that are all black is racist? A fire department in rural Iowa with all white firefighters is racist?

Give me a break.

I once asked one of my black employees who was complaining that he was one of only three black employees in the district this question after telling both my boss and myself that it was racist: I asked him "if blacks aren't applying for the job how can we interview and hire them?" He didn't get what I was saying, as we had to u terrier all employees who applied.

Yes. We need to promote being a barber to white Palo Alto high school seniors -- in the name of diversity.

I wonder how our new president feels about this subject?

No and no. But your examples are are obvious non-sequiturs and do not prove your statement. When there is lack of diversity on a larger scale (and there is), that is an indicator of racism. i.e., How many times have you seen a magazine featuring the 25 highest paid CEO's and they're all white men. Or an even better example, conviction rates for drug possession are much higher with blacks than whites, even though actual drug use between whites and blacks are about the same.


No, you give me a break.

Agree to disagree. I'm fine with that.

Call me a pessimist, but I have very little faith that sexism and racism will be solved on the internet, much less on APC.

It's entertaining every time I see white males in aviation talking about how they are getting hosed because they are white males. Women make up about 5% of airline pilots. The reasons for that don't matter. What matters is because of the small numbers, women have more visibility. You notice the females, the males are just another uniform in the crowd. Everyone has a story about "that girl who couldn't fly". They probably flew with scores of males who sucked, but didn't stand out. Male privilege is a real thing. It's a fact that these perceptions and biases force female pilots to work that much harder, because no one wants to be labeled "that girl". Male pilots can be mediocre all day, but if a female flies that way, she gets the stigma. Someone else mentioned "career off ramps". Yes, until science finds a way to make men have babies (trust me, we're pulling for you), women who want a family are going to have to take some time out of their career, even with an accommodating spouse. This is a big bart of the glass ceiling (another real thing) and the fact that women make less than men who do the same jobs, and achieve less promotions. Penalties for taking that time off.

So when you see "diversity programs", don't assume it's because airlines have some ulterior motive to hiring minorities and women. It's because corporations realize that these societal biases tilt the playing field away from minorities and women, and they want to level the playing field. Even with all of this "diversity hiring", the percentages of minorities and women in aviation has remained relatively unchanged. As for the popular theory that checking boxes is an immediate route to a dream job, the "happy monday" crowd knows better and has worked just as hard to get there as you, and in many cases, harder.

Wrong!


Every female I can think of that has been along my same ranks here and there at different companies throughout my career are now at Delta, United, Fedex, and UPS. They most certainly are acquired by the majors like theyre some sort of rare Pokémon. Some of them are even average pilots.

+100........