Gate refusing a jumpseat for W&B?
08-18-2018, 11:23 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: Supine
Posts: 251
Originally Posted by DashAviator
It's rare, but it does happen. Some of the most common reasons include:
(3) Short, heavy leg. Your takeoff weight is probably burn limited (the Q400 can take off at 65,200 lbs, but only if you burn off 3,200 lbs of fuel before you land). YVR-SEA and SEA-PDX are frequently burn limited. We were exactly one pound under our maximum on a recent SEA-PDX flight, but got both jumpseaters on board.
Hope that helps.
(3) Short, heavy leg. Your takeoff weight is probably burn limited (the Q400 can take off at 65,200 lbs, but only if you burn off 3,200 lbs of fuel before you land). YVR-SEA and SEA-PDX are frequently burn limited. We were exactly one pound under our maximum on a recent SEA-PDX flight, but got both jumpseaters on board.
Hope that helps.
08-18-2018, 11:37 AM
#12
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Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 296
Originally Posted by Singlecoil
How could you be one pound under gross? Isn’t everything rounded to the nearest ten pounds? Do they still use the index method there, as in your takeoff weight would look something like 63,452.45?
Even if the ACARS or TLR rounds to the nearest 10, some parts of the paperwork can show exact numbers. Airline dependent of course.
08-18-2018, 11:47 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: fatigued
Posts: 1,397
Originally Posted by SIUav8er
This is frustrating. Last time I checked, the gate agents dont do weight and balance. To the guy who got bumped, put in a word with your union jumpseat committee.
As for being PIC on the ground at QX, I disagree with what snackysmores says. If the CA puts a stop to boarding, you may get asked why at a later date but thats it.
I start my APU at my leisure (every leg), and have never heard a peep from anyone.
If I want fuel, the aircraft doesnt move till i get it... sometimes being a CA requires you to not let people railroad you bro.
As for being PIC on the ground at QX, I disagree with what snackysmores says. If the CA puts a stop to boarding, you may get asked why at a later date but thats it.
I start my APU at my leisure (every leg), and have never heard a peep from anyone.
If I want fuel, the aircraft doesnt move till i get it... sometimes being a CA requires you to not let people railroad you bro.
08-18-2018, 12:31 PM
#14
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Joined APC: Apr 2018
Position: Q,
Posts: 72
Originally Posted by Taco280AI
Just wondering if this could be legit or just gate agents not wanting to do any work.
Was trying to get home, full flight, open cockpit JS. Gate to gate, a 90 minute trip, wouldn't expect a heavy fuel load since both airports had good weather - but I'm not familiar with the Q or Horizon. Gate agent said we're full, not taking anyone in the JS for weight and balance. We (Skywest Captain was also trying to help me get on since he was there waiting as well) simply asked them to ask the captain if he knew there was a pilot trying to JS. They said they'd ask.
Some supervisor, Andrew, showed up and said the same W&B issue, we again asked if they could simply talk to the captain. "No, the plane is already late... W&B... we're not going to ask..."
Is this standard not to simply speak to the captain? Legit excuse for W&B Or a bunch of BS?
Not to get this mixed up, if they had spoken to the captain and he said "sorry, I wish we could, but we can't take you" then no problem. But refusing to even ask, that's the main issue.
Was trying to get home, full flight, open cockpit JS. Gate to gate, a 90 minute trip, wouldn't expect a heavy fuel load since both airports had good weather - but I'm not familiar with the Q or Horizon. Gate agent said we're full, not taking anyone in the JS for weight and balance. We (Skywest Captain was also trying to help me get on since he was there waiting as well) simply asked them to ask the captain if he knew there was a pilot trying to JS. They said they'd ask.
Some supervisor, Andrew, showed up and said the same W&B issue, we again asked if they could simply talk to the captain. "No, the plane is already late... W&B... we're not going to ask..."
Is this standard not to simply speak to the captain? Legit excuse for W&B Or a bunch of BS?
Not to get this mixed up, if they had spoken to the captain and he said "sorry, I wish we could, but we can't take you" then no problem. But refusing to even ask, that's the main issue.
An AS pilot (not JS)checks in with me if were not taking any jump seaters. I tell him we should be. He replies the gate says you are not. I reply thats news to me. I call CLP and they reply that they told the gate to limit to 1 Jump seat. Hmmm. I call ops and he tells me we can take one jump seat. I tell him the above. He says he will check then tells me no Jump seat. By then flight is closed out and we have 74 pax and 1800 lbs usable load even with a fuel burn reduced max landing weight. I call CLP and inquire politically correct WTF!. Then I start getting all the dodges. We were expecting 76, bag load was lighter than expected, blah blah. In a nutshell CLP screwed it up in a big way, stations is too lazy to fix it and you don't get home. All I can say I am sorry for our incompetent people. I have commuted on AS many years and know in these types of situations when the flight is closed out for revenue passengers a quick calculation of useable load is done and that usable is put on in non revs and jump seaters.
We RARELY had that this problem when captains did their own W and B.
To answer your question. A bunch of BS. Thats the reason you can't talk to the captain. Its all about control.
08-18-2018, 03:05 PM
#15
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Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 325
The same sentiment can be said for working at Alaska too. It is truly embarrassing to work here.
Originally Posted by snackysmores
These occurrences have been increasing lately, and it's usually for the performance issues Dash descibed above..one thing we can do is get small items off the A La Carts (like backpacks) and take them out of the pit and into the main cabin..I've been able to get people on that way.
The bigger problem is the gate agents not wanting to make the effort to notify captains, and being parked miles away from the terminal so captains aren't making the trek to get inside and see who's standing around.
It's also worth noting that Alaska management has deemed Horizon captains as PIC only when the plane is in the air. They continually stress through notices and disciplinary action that we have no say as to what goes on when we are on the ground (e.g. when it's ok to board, when the APU can be ran, how much fuel you can take etc.) It's truly embarrassing to work here sometimes.
The bigger problem is the gate agents not wanting to make the effort to notify captains, and being parked miles away from the terminal so captains aren't making the trek to get inside and see who's standing around.
It's also worth noting that Alaska management has deemed Horizon captains as PIC only when the plane is in the air. They continually stress through notices and disciplinary action that we have no say as to what goes on when we are on the ground (e.g. when it's ok to board, when the APU can be ran, how much fuel you can take etc.) It's truly embarrassing to work here sometimes.
08-18-2018, 04:38 PM
#16
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 570
Originally Posted by Dashdrvr
Doesn't sound like you were trying to get on my flight yesterday but the circumstances are eerily similar.
An AS pilot (not JS)checks in with me if were not taking any jump seaters. I tell him we should be. He replies the gate says you are not. I reply thats news to me. I call CLP and they reply that they told the gate to limit to 1 Jump seat. Hmmm. I call ops and he tells me we can take one jump seat. I tell him the above. He says he will check then tells me no Jump seat. By then flight is closed out and we have 74 pax and 1800 lbs usable load even with a fuel burn reduced max landing weight. I call CLP and inquire politically correct WTF!. Then I start getting all the dodges. We were expecting 76, bag load was lighter than expected, blah blah. In a nutshell CLP screwed it up in a big way, stations is too lazy to fix it and you don't get home. All I can say I am sorry for our incompetent people. I have commuted on AS many years and know in these types of situations when the flight is closed out for revenue passengers a quick calculation of useable load is done and that usable is put on in non revs and jump seaters.
We RARELY had that this problem when captains did their own W and B.
To answer your question. A bunch of BS. Thats the reason you can't talk to the captain. Its all about control.
An AS pilot (not JS)checks in with me if were not taking any jump seaters. I tell him we should be. He replies the gate says you are not. I reply thats news to me. I call CLP and they reply that they told the gate to limit to 1 Jump seat. Hmmm. I call ops and he tells me we can take one jump seat. I tell him the above. He says he will check then tells me no Jump seat. By then flight is closed out and we have 74 pax and 1800 lbs usable load even with a fuel burn reduced max landing weight. I call CLP and inquire politically correct WTF!. Then I start getting all the dodges. We were expecting 76, bag load was lighter than expected, blah blah. In a nutshell CLP screwed it up in a big way, stations is too lazy to fix it and you don't get home. All I can say I am sorry for our incompetent people. I have commuted on AS many years and know in these types of situations when the flight is closed out for revenue passengers a quick calculation of useable load is done and that usable is put on in non revs and jump seaters.
We RARELY had that this problem when captains did their own W and B.
To answer your question. A bunch of BS. Thats the reason you can't talk to the captain. Its all about control.
Last edited by Taco280AI; 08-18-2018 at 05:00 PM.
08-18-2018, 07:39 PM
#17
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Joined APC: Apr 2018
Position: Q,
Posts: 72
Originally Posted by Taco280AI
Flight 2724? There was an AS pilot trying to fly with his family. And I did send an email to the ALPA JS rep.
08-19-2018, 07:34 AM
#18
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Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 325
It will fall upon deaf ears.. AAG has no interest in catering to online commuters let alone off line commuters.
They are slaves to their “timeline” metrics, and have completely taken the ability for humans to think and problem solve away. Everything is done by other people.. central load planning, gate agents, dispatch etc. if you’re a pilot at AAG, regardless if at Alaska or Horizon you have no authority to make sure a jumpseater gets on. This is place is a joke, if it hasn’t been prefilled on a computer well in advance then forget about it. I commute off line even having online options because our airline is so terrible. Go Delta!
They are slaves to their “timeline” metrics, and have completely taken the ability for humans to think and problem solve away. Everything is done by other people.. central load planning, gate agents, dispatch etc. if you’re a pilot at AAG, regardless if at Alaska or Horizon you have no authority to make sure a jumpseater gets on. This is place is a joke, if it hasn’t been prefilled on a computer well in advance then forget about it. I commute off line even having online options because our airline is so terrible. Go Delta!
Originally Posted by Dashdrvr
Different one for me 2554. This is distressing when this happens way so frequently. I would recommend pilots caught like this contact their jump seat committee chair. We can apply pressure from both ends.
08-19-2018, 07:39 AM
#19
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Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: 7th green
Posts: 4,378
Originally Posted by SIUav8er
This is frustrating. Last time I checked, the gate agents dont do weight and balance. To the guy who got bumped, put in a word with your union jumpseat committee... sometimes being a CA requires you to not let people railroad you bro.
It happens, bro.
08-19-2018, 02:44 PM
#20
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 341
Originally Posted by Packrat
No, but load control does. Its usually shows up on their gate computer that its a weight and balance issue. I was bumped a couple times because they had to carry extra gas for an alternate.
It happens, bro.
It happens, bro.
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