AA to match DAL pay
 

...AND adopt their profit sharing formula.

Not that it matters since PS isnt "real pay" according to B6ALPA. Their CEO is probably doing this as a charity move since pilots don't have any leverage right now.



https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/03/08/...ay-raises.html

You just don’t understand.

If Robin did this stunt we would all be furious. Give APA a TA and not a nicely wored email.

the CEO trying to bypass the pilot union isnt a good thing at all. Shiny pay rates sure, but what about QOL items?

100%

This is their CEO blatantly saying to the pilots "I know all you care about is hourly numbers, here ya go". It's so predictable and funny that of course people here will think this is a good move.

QOL is everything. Give me industry leading work rules and I'll make the money I need to make with it, or have a better at home QOL. It's like back at the regionals where nobody could see past 1st year pay and would take a good pay rate and accept an absolute stinking pile of work rules.

Let the union do it's thing.

Problem is, pilots justify accepting sub standard pay, PS and 401K by touting QOL "gains" that either can be manipulated by the company once implemented or only can be enjoyed by a small amount of the pilot group. The answer is pay/PS/401K parity with the top airlines in the industry AND work for those QOL issues people tout so often as their holy grail. Shouldn't be one or the other.

Case in point: “Industry leading pairing construction” allowing in base over nights. Saving the company 100m a year estimated.

And killing the high time, productive day turns and turning them into min pay 3/4 day pairings. So this causes senior pilots to bid different pairing than they used to causing a decrease in QOL/productivity for almost everyone. But yeah, let's just focus on work rules and QOL initiatives most will never see and accept bottom of the peer group pay instead.

THIS, is a Bingo.

I’m advocating this part of your comment. I’m tired of self funding raises.

“The answer is pay/PS/401K parity with the top airlines in the industry AND work for those QOL issues.”

I see this raise as nothing more than them giving us back part of the money they saved since I think June? For destroying the pairings. Nothing more except high fives at the top levels of both organizations.

Speak for yourself. This offer comes with undisclosed QOL improvments.
Our union got us less than this with ZERO QOL improvements.

To those who chant "no pay, work rules instead" I would challenge you to explain precisely how much a given rule is worth to the group. Im not saying we should sacrifice things like scheduling protections, or scope *cough LOA17 cough* for pay, but small gains in work rules aren't usually worth much, as the company just puts them into the optimizer and erases most of the gains from them.

I hope my NK brothers eventually understand this but that will be an uphill battle in itself.

“The pay is substandard but look at the great overnights in fun places!”
- Company stops scheduling overnights in fun places.

”The pay is substandard but they negotiated 330 rates… I’ll just bid that!”
- Company never orders 330s.

”The pay is substandard but look at all these ambiguous work rules! Maybe the company would never abuse the huge gray areas!”
- Company put the huge gray areas in the contract for a reason. And the reason was to abuse them.

You mean like Spirit? Smh. QOL and work rules are important, soft pay and all. But that doesn't mean we should choose between that and industry standard pay. Get out of that mindset. What if you don't have to find a way to make the money you need to make? What if you can have the work rules, QOL and industry standard compensation package all in one CBA? I know, must be a unicorn right? Check out your peers and see if it's still a unicorn.

Yes you are not going to jump in negotiations asking for 500 per hr, you ask for industry standard (even the top of the highest carrier, eg. $337 DOS), THEN get the difference between the $337 and the oh so mighty $500 per hr in work rules, soft pay, and QOL. That's how you don't make yourself look unreasonable.

You dont take the bottom of the barrel pay and justify it with work rules, while your peers can easily do all that by just flying their given schedule.

That is the worst attitude to have going into a JCBA with significant leverage. This is why we can't have nice things.

Who’s saying we have to choose between pay and QOL? Where’s this narrative coming from? Our major concern is the DOJ and a timeline to actually getting a JCBA. Nothing is guaranteed.

Bingo

Once again our guys are OR guys. Pay OR work rules, qol OR pay, ps OR pay. We need to be and guys. Pay and work rules, ps and pay, QOL and pay.

Again we should go for EVERYTHING and make no apologies about it. It’s not greed it’s the current market. If anything we have also learned how JetBlue will manipulate these rules while our guys say oh we never thought they would. The days of picking qol or pay for a CBA are over.

jetblue management is not our friend they are managers and we are there to be managed, it’s simple we are a number. Much like you assume there are alligators in any body of water in FL assume JetBlue will do anything to try to limit pilot costs and build a contract off that. They have their job we have ours.

You get what a company is willing to give. When attrition gets too high, and hiring gets too hard, they'll come and start offering improvements.

In the meantime, you've got the time value of money working for you.... this lesson was learned (by most) from the over a decade of USAir pilots not getting anything because they were too busy fighting with themselves, and unable to agree on anything. Their pilots lost collectively over $2B.

Taking the contract when you did was better than a prolonged drawn-out negotiation for what you will get eventually anyway; you certainly weren't going to get it before Delta, AA, and United inked their final deals... and that still hasnt happened. What has happened is AA management by-passed the pilot union and is trying to negotiate in public as if rates were the only issues.

ummm…. ALYflyer. Thats pretty much what is being said. Hence why I quoted his comment.

I didn’t see that 😂 ALYflyer knows better! Come on, man (My best Joe Biden voice)

Think you misunderstood where I was going. CEO saying he will do something and delivering a acutal contract are two seperate things.

🤭🤭😅

Filler

You're misreading what I said. The OP is talking about pay rates, and myself and a couple others said that pilots are short sighted, and the only thing they look for in the contract is money when the language comes out. From my years at the regionals to my time here, it's always "What's first year pay!? What's the top pay rate!?" while completely skipping the rest of the contract. My point was that the AA CEO knows this and he threw the pilots a bone and said "You guys are always taking about Delta, here's the money, now get back to work", when the reality is that the work rules are just as important, if not more important than the pay rates.

Of course I want BOTH, however if JB wants to pay me $500/hr but have nothing but in-base layovers, minimum credit pairings and other crap rules that makes our QOL tank, they can take the money and shove it.

I think you’re pretty spot on here. Skywest has a similar story, which is why a lot of their guys are leaving in droves when they could stay for whatever deal thing they have. Guys were talking about that they are now pretty much contactable 24/7 via their iPads, along with some other concessions that raises some eyebrows. QOL is important and I think must be addressed during JCBA time. Not going to roll over for major concessions if they try to use PS as a red herring to cover up their plans in other areas either.

This entire JCBA better be an "AND" contract. Pay rates *AND* work rules/QOL *AND* retirement *AND* benefits *ANDDDDD* Profit Sharing.