Briefings
 

Hi - Just a rant here and hopefully get some suggestions from you guys
Scenario - Captain gets to the plane and does not give a pairing brief , then when we get to the point where the PF is supposed to do the ATCS briefing and simply states " any questions" does the same for the arrival too. The first time I noticed this I thought this was a rare thing. I have now kinda got used to this , is this the new norm ? How do u guys deal with this on the line. I was watching the Airbus TEM video , Airbus recommends the PM to start the briefing.

Thanks

Rarely have I seen this, but those guys exist. It is the responsibility for both crewmwmbers to have the good old "shared mental model." If you're unsure of what you're doing, your expectations, or compliance with the FCOM, its the FO's responsibility to ask for the required briefings. Hold the Captain accountable.

If you feel like there's information that you don't have (and do need), ask for it. "Hey, we've never flown together before." Go from there.

per the FCOM, if you haven’t don’t the departure or approach once already today, it needs to be done. In my experience briefings are very standard at JetBlue. But maybe there is some drift since we moved away from being militant about it.

My interpretation about his question was more to do with the pairing brief, which some people do skip. To your point, I've never seen someone skip any of the other briefs (departure, takeoff, or approach). But the point I made still stands. If you ever are in a situation where you aren't getting what you need, or feel like something is being skipped, ask.

he's saying he's flying with captains who don't do any briefings at all. I wish I knew who they were so I or my family would never have to be in the back of their planes. lazy idiots. that's going to look real good on the cvr when they take off or land on the wrong runway or land at the wrong airport or miss an important notam or who knows what. this makes me sick.

and yes, if a captain says no briefing at all but just asks, "any questions?" how about piping up and saying, "where's the briefing?" I'm not putting the blame for their complete lack of professionalism on you, and I know it's hard to try to do things right when the guy in charge who is getting paid two or three times as much as you is so pathetic at his job that you don't know what to do (I've been there too, but not at jetblue, thankfully), but you still have to do it. if for no other reason, think about them playing the cvr at your trial or on the news after your death. did you do everything you could? did you try to do things right?

Pairing briefs are hit or miss. Some Captain's do them them, some don't. Not a huge deal on that one, but skipping it lacks professionalism. Departure and takeoff briefs should NEVER be skipped....ever. And I don't recall anyone actually skipping these. Approach briefs can be abbreviated per FCOM guidance. If you're both based at that airport, and you're planning an arrival and visual you do everyday, an abbreviated approach brief would be acceptable. While there is some procedural drift, I find most pilots to be pretty standardized here.

I've had guys do that at a regional, but not here.

If I came across one that refused to give a briefing, at the very least I would go through his planning with a fine toothed comb and give the CVR my own damned briefing.

A Miata is faster than a Corvette, because a Miata is a true sports car!

Agree with the sentiments here.

Briefings are required per the FCOM. If you aren't receiving them, go to ALPA Pro Standards. Our Pro Standards Chair is recognized as possibly the best in the industry.

Pilots don't like sucking at their jobs.....they really don't like other pilots thinking they suck. Pro Standards is a great tool.

great points. I was so irritated I forgot to bring that up.

it is equally unprofessional to go to pro standards without being big enough to say something to the pilot first. Give the person fair warning.

Took the words out of my mouth. If anyone gets a pro standards call and is surprised, someone screwed up. Handle it at the lowest level first.

the guy not doing any briefings at all... I'm sorry, the captain, the pilot in command, who never does any briefings ever... doesn't know he's doing something wrong? he's going to be surprised if someone tells on him? then he's got even more problems. he's up there with the mushroom guy who tried to shut off the engines from the jumpseat.

if you’re not man (or lady) enough to confront them, you shouldn’t be there either. Plus, you look like a coward. I’m on your side. But there is a way to approach this.

this person is sloppy, implying they are dangerous is a whole different thing. Be careful how much drama you want to inject into this.

I don't assume anything. One doesnt know for sure is he's like this always, or just feeling lazy that day, or has personal sh*t going on. Bring it up like a resonsible professional. I'll give a guy one chance after spoken too. Then move it up the chain.

Some would be surprised yes. However the first thing pro stands will ask is did you say anything. They expect you to try to sole the problem first, after that they are there to help.

Absolutely. I didnt think I needed to say it, but absolutely talk to who are flying with before you go to PS.

Wait... what? There are levels of irresponsiblity and those two are on waaaay different levels.

I did pro stands for many years shocking I know. You would always ask hey did you say anything lots of times the answer was no. If you are dealing with a mature pilot there shouldn't be an issue. I had an fo not long ago said he would be more comfortable doing a full briefing vs the cliff notes. Now we just flew into this same runway a few hours ago in the same wx but I was like sure have at it. Sometimes guys don't honestly know they did something that annoyed the other guy or made them uncomfortable.

It’s not your job to “talk to him”. Same way it’s not your job if he shows up to the gate intoxicated/under the influence to talk him out of flying an airplane. He knows damn well what he’s doing wrong. He goes through checking events on the regular. He knows the standard, and he knows what right looks like. He’s a captain, a grown man, and adult. One time is a mistake, second time is enemy action.

Do your job and fly standard.

As Second-in-COMMMAND, it IS your job to talk to him (assuming it’s a man) and you should do it diplomatically, that IS your job. But keep in mind, Probably thousands or tens of thousands of hours of safe operation and you draw the line in the sand and go scorched earth over a briefing.

If you need to say something to someone, you don’t need to be a jerk, just say you’d like to be briefed. I guarantee you they’ll do it. We have great guys at JB, the loudest guys on the inter web are kitty cats to fly with.

Exactly. Not hard...

"You ready to brief?"
​​​​"I'm ready for your briefing."
"Go ahead."
"Hit me with it."

We hold each other to the standard. IRT an earlier post, I'm not at B6, and yes, my airline follows the Airbus rec of PM first on the brief in line with TEM. Now the PF cues it up, but the PM is trained and used to going at the beginning.

SOP and keep the rubber side down!

And here is the second lesson in pro standards that sometimes the guy doing the reporting is actually the issue.

It is literally your job to talk with him did you not take any CRM classes? You are being overly generalized here. There is a massive difference between “talking” and covering for non standard or illegal actions.

Its very simple hey captain I would feel more comfortable if we just briefed this real quick. That’s “talking” to him. If he refuses after that head on over to PS or if you really feel like it’s a safety issue request to be removed. But I absolutely guarantee the union and the company along with your fellow aviators will be like did you say anything first or did you just go tell on him.

Let’s use this. Talk to the guy and after he refuses or tells you to F off no proceed to step two.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YS-SRz...IGZ1Y2sgdXA%3D

Honestly? Grow up. If you're not getting the info you need, you're feeling left out or uninformed or whatever... grow a pair, be an adult, and talk to the other guy until you're both on the same page. I'm riding in the back depending on you to be a professional and get me safely home, and frankly I have zero patience for stuff like this. Seriously you're at a major airline (more or less), act like it.

Ya and if you type of guys would stay standard from the start, be up to date on your SOPs and fly it like we trained, there would be no issue to begin with. Getting “all the information you need” doesn't provide a shared mental model.
If you’re too complacent or lazy for a brief then you deserve to be reported to PS without warning. You know what the job is, do it.

lol, I don’t even think you know what pro stans does. I have a feeling you’re going to be flying with a lot of reserves.

Are you military?
Respectfully you have a major lack of understanding what pro stands does and how they would handle that issue. Observe and report without warning won’t go over well at all and shows a lack of professionalism on your side.

I'm sorry, you type of guys? Get lost! I train standard, I brief standard, I fly standard. Don't lump me in with some jokers just because you mis-read my comment. Also, as others have noted, please brush up on what your union and PS does and does not do.

Knew this thread would evolve into a cat fight.
This is why (as I said before) I drive a Miata, a proven sports car.😎

I, too, am a beloved Miata enthusiast. Best sports car ever made.

From a cat fight to full on military campaign...

observe and report.