T-Con Turns?
12-31-2005, 11:53 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 157
One of the benefits of the ability to do over 8 hours would be to fly any 2 legs. Nothing is firm that it would only be Transcon turns. Say FLL did FLL-JFK-LGB. That would be 8-9 hours and is no where near a transcon turn. But boy would productivity increase. There are many such combo's that could be put together out of JFK. One short and 1 long leg. I don't see IROPs hurting these at all. Remember the 7.5 hour 4 legs east coast parings has a much longer duty day than a transcon turn or a short/long leg combo. 16 hours is 16 hours, whether you are on leg 2 or leg 4 or leg 6 of a duty day.
What I see as long pole in the tent will be to see what rest requirements come along with the expemtion. If the rest requirements are bad (unable to consecutive trips), it is limited or no help to productivity. However, even if the rest requirements are stiff (sts), say 24 hours off after such an event, you could always do one as the last flying event in a 3-4 day commute. Which would still increase everyone's aveage productivity. Just some thoughts...
Just my opinion....
FNG
What I see as long pole in the tent will be to see what rest requirements come along with the expemtion. If the rest requirements are bad (unable to consecutive trips), it is limited or no help to productivity. However, even if the rest requirements are stiff (sts), say 24 hours off after such an event, you could always do one as the last flying event in a 3-4 day commute. Which would still increase everyone's aveage productivity. Just some thoughts...
Just my opinion....
FNG
12-31-2005, 06:43 PM
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by FNG320
One of the benefits of the ability to do over 8 hours would be to fly any 2 legs. Nothing is firm that it would only be Transcon turns. Say FLL did FLL-JFK-LGB. That would be 8-9 hours and is no where near a transcon turn. But boy would productivity increase. There are many such combo's that could be put together out of JFK. One short and 1 long leg. I don't see IROPs hurting these at all. Remember the 7.5 hour 4 legs east coast parings has a much longer duty day than a transcon turn or a short/long leg combo. 16 hours is 16 hours, whether you are on leg 2 or leg 4 or leg 6 of a duty day.
What I see as long pole in the tent will be to see what rest requirements come along with the expemtion. If the rest requirements are bad (unable to consecutive trips), it is limited or no help to productivity. However, even if the rest requirements are stiff (sts), say 24 hours off after such an event, you could always do one as the last flying event in a 3-4 day commute. Which would still increase everyone's aveage productivity. Just some thoughts...
Just my opinion....
FNG
What I see as long pole in the tent will be to see what rest requirements come along with the expemtion. If the rest requirements are bad (unable to consecutive trips), it is limited or no help to productivity. However, even if the rest requirements are stiff (sts), say 24 hours off after such an event, you could always do one as the last flying event in a 3-4 day commute. Which would still increase everyone's aveage productivity. Just some thoughts...
Just my opinion....
FNG
That wouldn't be achieved by a FLL-JFK-LGB day.
Hey, diamonddd. Was that too "negative"? You've got me all self-conscious!
12-31-2005, 09:17 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: tri current
Posts: 1,485
As a JBLU outsider let me make this comment. You guys are trying to re-invent the wheel, why ? Everything you need is in the European Flight and Duty Time limitations scheme. With that there is no problem flying over 8 hours with just two pilots as long as you stay within certain duty limits. To put it another way, "it's the duty time, stupid". At European airlines and my carrier, which follows similar FTLs, we routinely fly more than 8 block hours in a day. And to the FNG who said that the number of legs doesn't matter, I beg to differ. The European limits, which are scientifically based, put a lot of emphasis on the number of legs flown and correspondingly reduce the max duty time allowed for each extra leg.
Some examples for you, based on being acclimatised to your home time zone:
Local Time of Start 0600-0759, two legs max duty is 12:15
Local Time of Start 0800-1259, two legs max duty is 13:15
Local Time of Start 2200-0559, two legs max duty is 10:15
For the above example if you go to three legs, the time reduces by 45 minutes.
Within these regs are provisions to increase the max duty allowed during IROPS up to 3 hours.
There are no limits on the amount of block time within that duty period, nor are their limits on the amount of block time in 7 days. The limit is a maximum of 55 duty hours in 7 consecutive days, 95 hours in 14 consecutive days, and 190 hours in 28 consecutive days.
If the US FAA would adopt these regulations you would have much more productive and much less fatigueing schedules. It would benefit many in the industry, especially the regionals who are forced into 15 hour multiple leg duty days as these types of trips would become illegal. It would allow you to do the occasional transcon turn and transcon-and-a-half trips. It is scientifically based and has been used for many years.
JBLU shouldn't be allowed an exemption to the FARs, the whole FTL regulation for Parts 121 and 135 should be changed to this, or a modified version, so that all airline pilots can benefit.
Typhoonpilot
P.S. Happy New Year !!!
Some examples for you, based on being acclimatised to your home time zone:
Local Time of Start 0600-0759, two legs max duty is 12:15
Local Time of Start 0800-1259, two legs max duty is 13:15
Local Time of Start 2200-0559, two legs max duty is 10:15
For the above example if you go to three legs, the time reduces by 45 minutes.
Within these regs are provisions to increase the max duty allowed during IROPS up to 3 hours.
There are no limits on the amount of block time within that duty period, nor are their limits on the amount of block time in 7 days. The limit is a maximum of 55 duty hours in 7 consecutive days, 95 hours in 14 consecutive days, and 190 hours in 28 consecutive days.
If the US FAA would adopt these regulations you would have much more productive and much less fatigueing schedules. It would benefit many in the industry, especially the regionals who are forced into 15 hour multiple leg duty days as these types of trips would become illegal. It would allow you to do the occasional transcon turn and transcon-and-a-half trips. It is scientifically based and has been used for many years.
JBLU shouldn't be allowed an exemption to the FARs, the whole FTL regulation for Parts 121 and 135 should be changed to this, or a modified version, so that all airline pilots can benefit.
Typhoonpilot
P.S. Happy New Year !!!
Last edited by Typhoonpilot; 12-31-2005 at 09:19 PM.
01-01-2006, 11:36 AM
#18
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: A320, left
Posts: 37
Originally Posted by Typhoonpilot
Everything you need is in the European Flight and Duty Time limitations scheme.
JBLU shouldn't be allowed an exemption to the FARs, the whole FTL regulation for Parts 121 and 135 should be changed to this, or a modified version, so that all airline pilots can benefit.
JBLU shouldn't be allowed an exemption to the FARs, the whole FTL regulation for Parts 121 and 135 should be changed to this, or a modified version, so that all airline pilots can benefit.
01-01-2006, 12:24 PM
#19
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,601
Originally Posted by Typhoonpilot
The European limits, which are scientifically based, put a lot of emphasis on the number of legs flown and correspondingly reduce the max duty time allowed for each extra leg.
Some examples for you, based on being acclimatised to your home time zone:
Local Time of Start 0600-0759, two legs max duty is 12:15
Local Time of Start 0800-1259, two legs max duty is 13:15
Local Time of Start 2200-0559, two legs max duty is 10:15
For the above example if you go to three legs, the time reduces by 45 minutes.
Within these regs are provisions to increase the max duty allowed during IROPS up to 3 hours.
There are no limits on the amount of block time within that duty period, nor are their limits on the amount of block time in 7 days. The limit is a maximum of 55 duty hours in 7 consecutive days, 95 hours in 14 consecutive days, and 190 hours in 28 consecutive days.............
If the US FAA would adopt these regulations you would have much more productive and much less fatiguing schedules. It would benefit many in the industry, especially the regionals who are forced into 15 hour multiple leg duty days as these types of trips would become illegal. It would allow you to do the occasional transcon turn and transcon-and-a-half trips. It is scientifically based and has been used for many years.
JBLU shouldn't be allowed an exemption to the FARs, the whole FTL regulation for Parts 121 and 135 should be changed to this, or a modified version, so that all airline pilots can benefit..........
Some examples for you, based on being acclimatised to your home time zone:
Local Time of Start 0600-0759, two legs max duty is 12:15
Local Time of Start 0800-1259, two legs max duty is 13:15
Local Time of Start 2200-0559, two legs max duty is 10:15
For the above example if you go to three legs, the time reduces by 45 minutes.
Within these regs are provisions to increase the max duty allowed during IROPS up to 3 hours.
There are no limits on the amount of block time within that duty period, nor are their limits on the amount of block time in 7 days. The limit is a maximum of 55 duty hours in 7 consecutive days, 95 hours in 14 consecutive days, and 190 hours in 28 consecutive days.............
If the US FAA would adopt these regulations you would have much more productive and much less fatiguing schedules. It would benefit many in the industry, especially the regionals who are forced into 15 hour multiple leg duty days as these types of trips would become illegal. It would allow you to do the occasional transcon turn and transcon-and-a-half trips. It is scientifically based and has been used for many years.
JBLU shouldn't be allowed an exemption to the FARs, the whole FTL regulation for Parts 121 and 135 should be changed to this, or a modified version, so that all airline pilots can benefit..........
No way any airline is going to accept duty limits like those you published when they can get (some) pilots to put in 16 hours days without any changes. Keep the 16 hour day and allow 9+ hours, that's what this is all about.
01-14-2006, 07:52 AM
#20
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,601
ALPA Leaders Promote Safety and Security Priorities
USA Today, The Washington Post, the Associated Press, Reuters, Bloomberg, and ABC Radio were among the important news outlets drawn to ALPA's Washington, D.C., offices in mid-January. The draw: Top issues of concern to airline pilots flying the line.
Laying out ALPA's safety and security agenda for 2006 to 20 members of the Beltway news media were Capt. Duane Woerth, ALPA's president; Capt. Terry McVenes, the Association's Executive Air Safety Chairman; and Capt. Bob Hesselbein, chairman of ALPA's National Security Committee. Topping their agenda were pilot fatigue, airspace modernization, cargo security, and runway safety.
The resultant coverage was immediate. USA Today ran on its website the next day a Reuter's story on ALPA's concerns about increased fatigue. The story was prompted by Capt. Woerth's charge that JetBlue may seek an exemption to domestic flight-time regulations that would keep pilots flying for as long as 10 consecutive hours. JetBlue confirmed the report.
The reporters' questioning turned toward economic issues as well, with Capt. Woerth decrying United Airlines management's grab for stock in its post-bankruptcy maneuvers. Bloomberg and Reuters ran stories that afternoon on United's "stick in the eye" of its employees.
ALPA routinely conducts such roundtable news media discussions, both to generate immediate coverage in the press and on television and to educate key journalists on issues that may be in the headlines in the weeks and months to come.
A full review of ALPA's safety and security priorities for 2006 will be included in the next issue of Air Line Pilot.
Air Line Pilots Association, Int'l
1625 Massachusetts Avenue N.W., Washington, DC 20036 (703) 689-2270
Laying out ALPA's safety and security agenda for 2006 to 20 members of the Beltway news media were Capt. Duane Woerth, ALPA's president; Capt. Terry McVenes, the Association's Executive Air Safety Chairman; and Capt. Bob Hesselbein, chairman of ALPA's National Security Committee. Topping their agenda were pilot fatigue, airspace modernization, cargo security, and runway safety.
The resultant coverage was immediate. USA Today ran on its website the next day a Reuter's story on ALPA's concerns about increased fatigue. The story was prompted by Capt. Woerth's charge that JetBlue may seek an exemption to domestic flight-time regulations that would keep pilots flying for as long as 10 consecutive hours. JetBlue confirmed the report.
The reporters' questioning turned toward economic issues as well, with Capt. Woerth decrying United Airlines management's grab for stock in its post-bankruptcy maneuvers. Bloomberg and Reuters ran stories that afternoon on United's "stick in the eye" of its employees.
ALPA routinely conducts such roundtable news media discussions, both to generate immediate coverage in the press and on television and to educate key journalists on issues that may be in the headlines in the weeks and months to come.
A full review of ALPA's safety and security priorities for 2006 will be included in the next issue of Air Line Pilot.
Air Line Pilots Association, Int'l
1625 Massachusetts Avenue N.W., Washington, DC 20036 (703) 689-2270
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