E190 Awards
 

Hey Gang,

Well, the E190 awards came out and it looks like it went all the way to the bottom of the list even down to pilots that are in A320 initial class. I for one, was a bit surprised, but was wondering how others view the results?

And please, let's try and leave the pay debate (we all pretty much agree it is a dismal subject) out of this particular discussion. I will admit, that the email from DB3 explaining the results was quite a tap dance, but that's a different story altogether.

So, what are the thoughts from the collective?

C yaaaa :cool:


P.S. can someone explain to me how to change the "New Hire" tag below my screen name? I tried in the profile section and couldn't find it??? Or does it say that until you reach a certain number of posts?

EMB-190 Results?
 

I am not sure what you are looking for in terms of a response. For me it was truly a financial decision to not bid for the EMB-190. I don't know how you can have a discussion of the results and leave the pay issue out of the discussion. Furthermore, the way in which the bid was constructed with the fence built in to protect the yet to be hired new captains really did not sit too well with me either. But, it is what it is, and for me it was not the right choice.

I wish all of those who got the award the best of luck and success in their new positions. This will definately be a valuable asset to jetBlue and will give us a operational tool that we did not have in our bag of tricks prior to now. Hopefully, in the future we can have a more open and fluid process that will allow the pilots to be more fairly represented. Only time will tell.

I think the bid itself speaks volumes about the issue of pay. Not too many that could hold captain in the A-320 in the next 2 years took the bid. I am sure we all can read into that whatever we want, but for me I will choose to keep it simple, pay is what puts food on the table and a roof over my head. The rest is secondary.

Cheers!

It is great for the guys that wanted it and got it.

Neeleman told us that we should be happy because he considered farming the 190 outside of JetBlue.

So I am happy.

There were a lot of senior guys that were excited about flying the E-190 when it was first introduced. I wonder why none of them bid for it? How strange.

:) I hope that all that bid the 190 are happy. Overall I think it is what everyone wanted. Those that wanted to stay in the 320 stayed, and those that wanted the 190 mostly got it (unless they did the percentage bid criteria).

My concern is for the new 190 FOs that will be hired from now on. Remember the presentation about pay and total compensation 320 vs 190 for those guys. The numbers were presented to show that a new 190 FO would upgrade in 6-12 months and how they would make more $$$ that a straight 320 FO that started at the same time. Remember this was done to "sell" us on the path and that it would be good for the new 190 FO. Well, that is out the window. I haven't done the numbers yet (I will), but I expect it to show that the new 190 FO will defintely be lower in total compensation than the straight 320 FO.

:confused: I know the numbers for 190 Captain were increased to take care of our current pilots and I 100% support that. But I still feel like some one just sold me a bill of goods or some swamp land in FL.....

But still, congrats on the guys who got Capt on the 190.

There are some people who have been typed on the 190 out of seniority already. Not including the standards captain.

For all of the assurances that checkairmen would be selected after the bid came out... I'm thinking I could guess at least two of the names who have already been chosen.

:rolleyes:

Street FO's for the 190's
 

Has the company started to hire FO's for the 190? The pay is a little disapointing. I always thought I could leave the regionals with a pay raise----even to the right seat.

As it stands now my pay would decrease by about 15k to start in the right seat of the 190.

Do you see the competitive hire times coming down? I find it hard to believe that someone with 2000hrs PIC Jet would want to go back to $37 an hour.

P

We have been told that new hires will be given the choice of the A320 or the E190 when hired. So.... Don't pick the E190 and go with the A320. That will fix your pay problem. Upgrade to Capt will be 2-4 years. E190 would be lower pay and upgrade to Capt would be 1-1.5 years (since we plan to upgrade 143 A320 FOs to E190 Capt)

As for competive times. I would think that it will still take 3-4000 hours of PIC to get hired. 2000 is a little low (depending on your background, USAF/USN/USMC fighter guys would most likely compete with 2000 PIC).

Good luck,
Just my opinion....

FNG

Now that is an interesting perspective from outside the company. If we do not get the appropriate experience level of pilots to fly the 190, you would think pay would have to go up. I would add, though, that even in the best of times first year pay for FOs in the majors was awful. Pay went up quickly, though, unlike the 190.

Neeleman's problem, however, is that he sold the 190 to the Board of Directors based on operating cost, about $.08 per ASM, and labor was a huge part of that.

It seems obvious that anyone coming to Jetblue would be striving for the left seat in the 320. So, the decision to come to JB and go with the 190 would have to be based not on the initial 37$/hour, but on money earned over a lifetime. At some point, it will take two or three years to upgrade to 190 Captain, and 4-5 years to upgrade to 320 Captain. People will have to do the math. That is why seniority is overridden when it comes to the 190. Near as I can tell, you cannot go from 320 FO to 190 Captain, except for the original 140 pilots. However, anyone in the right seat of the 320 will be behind everyone in the company with a higher seniority number for upgrade, since 190 Captains can bid for the left seat in the Airbus. That encourages new hires to accept the 190 initially, since they only have to worry about 190 seniority for upgrade. Confused? Anyone see it differently?

Let me put it another way. If you join B6 as a 320 FO, you are stuck at that pay rate until you upgrade to Captain in the 320. You cannot bid 190 Captain, so someone junior to you can get that paycheck and you can't. However, every 190 guy senior to you can get 320 Captain before you do. So there might be good reason to bid 190 in the future, depending on 320 upgrade time.

Does anyone know where to find the FA pay chart for Jetblue?

I don't have the exact numbers but it may be wise to bid to be a FA because you can make close to, if not more than, the 190 FO.

Re the 190
 

Thanks for the info Meworry?

I still have the desire to seek out B6. I know that in the long run it would be the best place (in my opinion) to go. I am now in the left seat of a SAAB for Colgan. I have talked to alot of you guys out of PWM and ORF while they were on my jumpseat..everyone seems pretty happy at B6. I think you will create a new perspective for some in the 190. The people department will be busy keeping people happy!

I heard the quality of life will be pretty good for the 190. I currently am based out of Providence and live there. We work like 4 on 3 off or somewhere like that. We are home every night and that means a lot to me too.....I heard the 190 will be more like a regional schedule and if they keep them cloe to BOS and JFK like someone on this post said...it would be great for me.

I just have to wait and see what happens. I have 4000TT and 2000Turbine...no jet. that is why I hope the competitive hiring will come down a little...I think it will unless like you say the pay goes up but with the .08 seat mile it might be tough.

Thanks for the info and hope to see you on the jumpseat!

P

Thanks for the info FNG320....

things are good where I am now and hope to make just one more airline change.....B6......

Thanks

Meworry,
Not true. Guys who bid the A320 are type locked for two years. Plus all of us (after the 190 CA bid last week) are also now type locked in the A320. After two years an A320 FO can bid Captain in the 190. The carrot for the new guys is that there new 190 FO can bid captain in the 190 before our current type lock in the A320 expires.

Where the company's plans start to fall apart is 3-5 years down the road. When A320 upgrade time is approaching 4-5 years and 190 upgrade times approach over 2-3 years. You will then get guys going A320 FO for two years (type lock in A320), then 190 Capt for two years (type lock in 190), then finially Capt in the A320. When this happens, the training cost will go thru the roof. If you look thru our contracts or all of the 190 paperwork, this is what will happen. It is not prohibitted. Management even says they support the seniority system of bidding types, that is why the 190 Capt numb ers were incresaed from 100 to 150, to support the projected numbers people wanted/needed.

Thus 3-5 years from now, things will be different. How can the company fix this. Let the 190 have the lower pay for a couple of years, then finailly give them a pay raise to make it a minimal increase in pay to shift from E190 Capt to A320 Captain (be senior E190 capt vs junior A320 captain for only a small pay raise?), Plus to make the more senior E190 FO want to stay in type and go to the E190 Capt postion vs changing type and going to the A320 Capt, thus blocking more junior A320 FOs from bidding it.

It will all come down to time upgrade in each system from each system. I fear that we will eventually have guys jumping back and forth between types causing massive training cost (jsut like the other Majors). However if all Captains and all FO got the same pay (same as UPS, AirTran, Frontier, Alaska, etc). The desire to jump back and forth between types goes way down. Yes, some movement will occur based on seniority, bases, quality of life, but it would be way less than the system that JB is using right now. Not to mention this would fix the E190 pay problem. So in about 2 years, expect the pay to change, not until then. Hey, it is the same job with the same company with the same responsiblities so why not the same pay. JB always talks about being fair, well some time in the future they will finally live up to their talk. Until then it may/will get ugly.

Just my opinion...

FNG

Looking from the outside I often wondered why JetBlue did not go with the A-318. Not too much bigger but the pilots could have all been typed and cross trained. The cost of operation might be higher but you would save the training costs.

Well for me... I should be blessed to go to the 190 huh?

P

If we stopped delivery on the A320 and grew the E190 fleet that would solve the crosstraining expenses.

E-190/A-320 pay is what it is because if you paid labor what it thought it was worth then you wouldn't have as strong of a balance sheet.

Without a positive/strong balance sheet, you can not convince the markets to invest in this investment vehicle(JBLU) which allows for equities to be cashed out on the other end.

Here is a copy of the inflight pay scale. Last year it was posted on a bulletin board in inflight. Otherwise, I know of no other place to find it. The way I read it, a 13year flight attendant gets paid more than an E190 FO. Now that really sucks! Plus they get a 5% or more pay raise per year for longevity. Where the pilots get next to nothing in longevity raises.


Inflight

Year pay percent
13 $38.40 5.21%
12 $36.50 5.19%
11 $34.70 5.15%
10 $33.00 5.10%
9 $31.40 5.02%
8 $29.90 5.28%
7 $28.40 5.19%
6 $27.00 9.09%
5 $24.75 6.68%
4 $23.20 4.98%
3 $22.10 5.24%
2 $21.00 5.00%
1 $20.00 starting



Hope this helps,


FNG

Since the 190 pilots will be paid less than the Bus drivers because they're less productive, are the inflight going to be paid MORE on the 190 since they will be MORE productive? The bus has 4 inflight for 156 pax. The 190 will have 2 for 100. Is that right?

OK, I'll buy that. Can't believe I was wrong, first time this year! :rolleyes:

I talked to a couple of Air Wisconsin guys the other night on a layover, very eager to come to Jetblue. They were quite surprised at the 190 pay rates, but in the end were not deterred by 36$ an hour. Initial pay for them in the CRJ, they said, was $23/hour in the right seat, though they were both doing better than 36 currently. I explained that the pay does not go up much until upgrade. Still, they wanted very much to come to B6, and not as In-Flight.

The 190 rates will become a "sea anchor" for the 320 rates.
The cost per seat mile on the 190's is already shaved so close (what with all the latest gadgets and everything) so the company will find it "impossible" to make the airplanes profitable at big airline rates (remember, "we could have outsourced them or we could have elected not to buy them") - therefore - any significant increases to 320 pay would be unfare to pilots joining Jetblue with the same experience level as all of us.
Airbus rates will have to be moderated to make 190 rates realistic.
The only people making money at Jetblue will be the ones who continue to cash in month after month.
It's OK though. With fast growth comes large numbers.
Get those surveys in - we may be speaking with a different voice in years to come.

It's OK though. With fast growth comes large numbers.
Get those surveys in - we may be speaking with a different voice in years to come.[/QUOTE]


sure, and i can end up with the same type of representation that the pilots are receiving at UNITED, DELTA, US AIRWAYS.... thats a great idea!! :confused: :confused:

I don't think anyone is advocating ALPA. But if JB management continues to ignore the concerns of the pilot group, there will be a need for a voice outside of the Values Committee.

Love JetBlue, but I don't particularly care for being told that I am valued as an employee on the first day and then later informed that there are 10,000 people who will gladly take my job if I have the temerity to disagree with something.

explain to me how JB is ignoring the concerns of the pilot group. if you look at the survey's from last year and see what JB is doing to correct those issue's, i would say management is 100% more responsive than any legacy or LCC carrier.

with the reality of THE INDUSTRY i.e. too many seats/price elasticity, we are not going to see a pay increase in the near future. remember, JB really did not make a profit in 4Q 2004 (it's called creative accounting). so to believe that WE DESERVE a raise, possibly to give it back (which the southwest pilots will have to do if oil stays above $50.00) is not wise, its foolish.

our reality today, is to have longevity. if we FOLLOW the typical ALPA mentality, we will end up like the UNITED, DELTA, USAIR, SOON TO BE NORTHWEST AND YES, SOON TO BE SOUTHWEST PILOTS. (if you dont believe me, study their last quarter earnings report)

I have looked at the results from last year, but those results are not relevant because they do not reflect the new wages and Pilot Agreement that was "mutually agreed upon" 6 months later. Further, can you tell me what exactly was changed as a result of last years survey? Because if you actually read it, you would know that it indicated there were few problems to be addressed. :confused: I have a feeling there will be a different story to tell next month.

As far as concerns, how about: 190 Pay, 401k match, changes to the scheduling guide without pilot input, modifying "minimum reserves" at will, abuse of reserve rules by scheduling, etc...did I mention 190 pay?

They only feedback I get is a few obscure and mysterious emails on occasion from the VC. Or, "if you don't like it, there are 10,000 resumes on file".

I'm more than happy to be patient and let things play out. DN and DB are great leaders and I understand their positions. But there is a certain hard-line attitude that has manifested itself in certain areas of management that was not here in the past. I think that's unfortunate, and I hope it changes.

Bluebrother,
I would say that management is 100% more responsive than the legacy carriers, They do communicate better with us in some areas, but overall they have been pretty unresponsive to our needs and desires.

Yes there has been ther 4Ps and the QSO. The 4Ps were things that needed to be done to correct problems in our initial programs, and to draw on the experience of a bigger pool of knowledge compared to when JB was new and a couple of guys with limited/no airline experience wrote the program. The QSO was was created to try and again fix things in our scheduling and manning areas that had many problems that have always been there, but were ignored or overcome by extra work by our crew members vs smart planning and fair treatment. Both of these areas were "empires" created by those that created them. Well, both emperors are now gone and things are being fixed (I hope).

But remember, these are systems that needed to be fixed. Yet there has been almost no response to our needs. No cost of living increase In almost four years! We have lost 10% of our buying power since the current pay scale took effect. Take into account massive increases in healthcare that we are paying for. I don't see them doing anything to help carry the burden. Just pass it on to the employee. Hey, I would rather have a pay raise and reduced profit sharing. Profit sharing that goes into my 401K doesn't help pay the rent. The way I did the numbers, it would take a 1% reduction in our profit marign to give us (every single JetBlue employee) a 2.5% cost of living raise. So, every year we don't get a cost of living raise, is just the company using us to prop up the annual profit margin.

Can JB afford it? You bet the can. 9% down to 8% for an annual margin is still better than all the other majors. The majors have recently pushed thru 5 separate fare increases. Yet JB only has done one. Hey, raise the ticket prices one dollars and apply the entire increase to employee pay. That will give over $125 per flight, or over $10.5 million dollars for pay increases. That would be $1500 per employee for the year (if evenly split among all employees). I agree that SWA's pay raise was excessive and only could be supported by the hedges they currently enjoy. Will they give it back later? I don't think so. But SWA will have to be careful. Note, SWA pilots and FA a also getting an annual cost of living rasie each year. But they did deserve some type of raise. We deserve the same thing. If JB can predict and manage the annual increase in aircraft MX cost as we grow and our planes get older, they can also plan and account for 2.5-3% annual pay raise. Again, we the employee, should not bear the brunt of JetBlue's growth by not being compensated for what inflation is doing to our purchasing power.

We will survive, even if we get the pay raise we deserve. Remember, it is a cost of living adjustment to correct for inflation, not a massive 20-30% raise. Yet, if we don't get this fixed soon, the mighty UNION may be formed and force the company to give us a big 20-30% raise to correct the unfair treatment of our employees for bearing the burden of no cost of living pay raise for years. Its the pay me now, pay me later deal. A little bit every year is a lot better for everyone vs a big one later.

Just my opinion....

FNG

That's twice you have said this same quote. I would really like to know who it was that told you this? If you would rather keep it anonymous, PM me. But I seriously doubt that anyone of authority told you this directly. Please prove me wrong and if it was just something you saw on a website, or grumblings from the few disgruntled ones we have, well, consider the source.

C yaaa

320,
I personally heard Al Spain say in recurrent training in the Winter of 03/04 in sresponse to the questions about a pay raise. To paraphrase his answer....."There is no reason to give you all a pay raise. We have 6000 applications online of pilots who what to work here." Most of us in that recurrent class to it to mean......"We are not going to give you a raise. If you don't like it here, you can leave" .....In addition he got rather upset with all of the questions conerning pay raise, SWA, benefits, etc. However, too much of this atttitue can result in "Take it or leave it....I'll raise you one UNION and call....." Again, not what we want, but a really bad attitude from management. Recently, I have also talked to other pilots who have gone to recurrent and they also have it from Al Spain, and even from David Neeleman within the last 6 months. It has been said, and defintely is not good. Starts to make the values a one way street. Good for us, but not for management. Where's the CARING value?

Just my opinion....

FNG

OK, thanks for answering my question. I wasn't trying to start a debate, I just wanted clarification. I personally have heard the "grumblings" but had never been told who was the specific quote's source. Now I know. Am I surprised? Well, sort of, but not in denial by any means.

Anyway, hang in there.

C yaaaa

When DN, DB, JO, AS and DB close the door at the end of the day what do you honestly think they have to say about their highest cost labor group, THE PILOTS?

I don't know what they say, but I believe they speak with more respect and fairness than the "Heavies" of any other airline.

Banger,

I agree with you. I am just speaking on a purely business level on the topics at hand.

I know you do. I don't mean to preach. Heck I'm on reserve right now and my life isn't all that great. But I just jumpseated home on a "U" feeder PSA. Man those guys told me what they made and how awful they had it. Oil is going thru the roof again. I see how paperthin the margins are in this industry and I'm glad I'm not the guys who have to figure out how to eek out a profit. People wank if they have to pay more than $69 to fly JFK-MCO!
Here I see growth, a descent salary, and the promise of better things when the industry straightens out. I even heard a strong rumor of a change to compensation recently which if true would be fantastic.
There are things that could be better but I see change and I personally know 30 guys who would pay $10K to get on here. Not a perfect world but things could be so much worse. Just call me a "cup half-full" guy.

- Banger

Seriously, REGIONAL vs. MAJOR?

My shotglass is FULL of bluejuice but it doesn't hurt to strive.