Jetblue and United comparison
 

After reading some misinformed comments on how "JetBlue isn't that bad" I just wanted to share a summary of the United contract that I found on another aviation forum. It is staggering how much better they have it there.

Contract hightlights:
-First year pay with snap up: $85.23 (may go up a couple of cents pending arbitration)
-Per Diem: $2.30 domestic $2.75 international
-Profit sharing (have to have worked one full year)
-Crew Meals: Reporting before 8am you get breakfast, flights over 4 hours you get a meal, over 5 hours you get a meal and snack
- Sit time between 2-4 hours requires a Crew lounge or they must provide a hotel room
-Core business district hotel for layover over 14 hours
-New hire uniforms are covered (no allowance after that)
-Dry cleaning of uniforms is covered
-WiFi and DirecTV are reimbursable on deadhead
-Deadheads: must be economy plus window or aisle if you get middle seat it is 50% add pay, first class to recurrent training if available, first class if deadheading to a flight assignment if available and the flight is 3+ hours
-May deviate from Deadheads at the start or end of pairings with a positive space ticket (anywhere in the US or home of record)
-PBS bidding: above the "G Line" you are guaranteed a line, below it you will be reserve but it may award you a line if conditions warrant. Your schedule is as good as your bidding.
- Cross town pay for any trip that starts at a secondary hub airport (ex. LGA)
-Min days off: Lineholder=12 Reserve=12 in 30 day month 13 in 31 day month
-Min day pay 5 hours (averaged over trip)
-1 paid move by company in career after your 1st year, or there are paid moving conditions where they will pay more than once
- Vacation: new hires accrue 1 1/16 day per full bid period, Years 1-4 get 14 days, 5-10 get 21, 11-24 get 35, 25+ get 42
-Sick leave: accrue 5 hours per month (may restore sick leave pay by picking up trip in same bid period)
-Reserve: guarantee is 73 hours, 13 hours to push call out, may assign you short call which is 2:30 call out (essentially get 1 hour of pay for every unused short call or field standby after 2 unused), may get field standby (4 hour length with no pay), may aggressively pick up trips/assignments at 10:55am the morning prior in seniority order
-Lineholder: guarantee is 70 hours, may trade or drop trips in Seniority order in the Seniority Trip Trade window up to 11am the day prior to a trip (senior people will obviously have more luck with this), after 11am the day prior it goes to the real time trip trade where you can only trade day for day (ex. 4 day for a 4 day) (awarded to the fastest clicker, but you may store preferences which will boost you ahead), there is no pool display so every trip drop request is done in the blind
-Retirement: Company direct contribution of 16% (vested immediately), Retirement Health Account: $1 for each hour of service (from your pay) is placed into account held by company to pay for retirement Healthcare
-Insurance: contract defines the minimums and controls costs, LTD: tax free earnings equal to 50% of pilots monthly earnings up to $8000 per month or $96,000 per year (essentially equal to min guarantee minus taxes)"

And here is a another United pilots summary of what is like to work there:

"In between the lines it is really enjoyable flying and the chaos that is regional flying is unheard of. Deadheads, hotels, meals, scheduling, ... it all just works. Flight attendants and gate agents handle their jobs efficiently and professionally. There is very little drama on the line here. I think the longest I waited on hold was 2 min and that was during a major snowstorm in two hubs. Reserve is very civilized. I was doing a trans con commute to the west coast and I was able to fly in the day of and home the last day every time. There are caveats but you can be released at 10 am on your last day on call and I was routinely released at 6-7 am to catch a 7:30am departure home. I didn't like sitting at the crash pad and I aggressively picked up flying one month and credited mid 80's with everything being commutable. I went 30 days without touching an airplane in the fall and I only flew 30-35 hrs per month my whole first year. Most people in the classes around mine were able to get their base of choice within 2-8 months. DEN, CLE, GUA, IAH, ORD, IAD, EWR, LAX, and SFO are most senior to most junior in my opinion. The bottom 4 are realistic right away or within 2 months but if you guess the wrong aircraft boeing/airbus and want DEN after they shuffle the flying out of DEN ... weird stuff does happen. Training pay is 90 hrs at 85.23 plus per diem 24/7. It is almost 10K a month with some of it tax free. Training is training, there won't be any serious headaches if you study a bit and play the game.

You can hold a crappy line within a month or a pretty ok line within 6 months. A crappy line might have 15 days off but you will have waived a lot of protections to get that line and you might have 11 days of flying in a row with 30+ hr overnights mixed in to make it legal. You will most likely try to trade or drop those trips but it is rare for good trips to pop up in open time. Our pbs system is a turd and you will spend hours each month trying to figure it out but in many ways everything else is run similar to the way xjt used to be run. I miss the "Max days off" button on smartpref because to bid that here you have about 10 lines of text and you still probably dorked it up. I haven't had to pay claim anything, every reimbursement is in my bank account within a few days, and they treat you like a professional. Best of luck to you!"

We know they have a better contract. What do you think we are working on?!

Our contracts are so far apart that I just can see it getting even close to what they have. I guess that what I am just trying say that if you are a junior FO you are probably best off by trying to leave JetBlue.
I keep flying with guys that still go above and beyond the scope of their job and with that being said what's the company's motivation to pay us more?

I don't think 40% do know. I still see blue gloves, stand ups, VDAs, RSAs, waiting till in base to write stuff up, being accessible to the company with our unpaid mobile phones, early brake releases, not calling scheduling to extend duty as we wait for a hotel, extending FDPs, arriving before showtimes, properly refuting false delay codes, arriving at work sick, not fatiguing out just to get home. I'd say 1 out 3 guys a fly with are guilty. I'm actually disgusted our unity.

I always like my favorite Rounders quote "if you can't spot the sucker at the table, we'll you are the sucker".

I understand what you're saying and certainly can't argue that. Personally, over the past year I've seen much less going above and beyond. I've only seen 1 CA don the blue gloves and 2 stand-ups, which is still 3 more than I'd like to see. It seems some see it all the time while others rarely see it.

I will never forget flying with a guy at the United regionals who told me a story how he used to be a Southwest Pilot !!!? He was on the line for 6 or 7 months when United got that big ass contract in 99' )I think). All his buddies at United told him he was an idiot for staying at Southwest because they were all going to be 73 captains in two years. So he leaves, furloughed twice ( 9/11, Age 65, financial meltdown 08') and now he's flying an RJ for 60 grand while his buddies all at SW are captains. I remember this story whenever my buddies at legacys tell me about how much money they will be making.
Nobody knows for sure what the future is going to bring us. What keeps me from applying is that H.O.P.E.fully we will get a good contract and I will be sitting at 50% seniority at a profitable healthy airline that has huge potential for growth. B6 has its problems just like all airlines do. Hopefully our union will be strong in the future and we get what we deserve.

Oh and BTW do you know what the strongest human emotion is before fear?
H.O.P.E.

It blows my mind how many Captains I fly with that have no idea what other airlines pay their pilots or how far behind we are in every area of our current contract.

I wish our union would put out a blast each week with a specific section of our contract and compare that section to 3-4 other airlines rate, language, etc. Literally spelling out how far behind we are, so maybe some of these guys/girls will get on board. I don't think many people really look at the contract comparison guide.

We all know pilots with stories like that especially stemming from the days just prior to 9/11. My advice to the youngin's is to not job hop too much and do not chase the money. Something else is going to happen soon to quell this uptick in hiring someday. Maybe sooner. Probably later. Just be careful.

It is not just about the the contract. The culture of JetBlue is a problem. Remember we don't have pilots and flight attendants at JetBlue, we have CREWMEMBERS. Pilots at JetBlue are treated on par with flight attendants and this is not going to change anytime soon. The way this company handles IROP's is on par with the worst of the regionals. Last week, after a few inches of snow I waited well over an hour on hold with crew services to get a hotel. I was promised a hotel room ASAP and in the end I did not get one till 8 hours later. Because I did not get the room till 5AM, now I was illegal fly my scheduled flight that day. This type of stuff just doesn't happen at the other Majors.

Maybe you should revisit the badging office.... mine says Pilot right on it.

Wow. 8 hours to get a hotel room. The 'caring' value at work for you!

A United pilot recently posted that his longest hold time for Crew Scheduling was 5 minutes.

Beware....what they promise and what they do are two very different things.

I am not sure what company you are working for... We are all equal at JetBlue.

Assuming this guy accepted recall (given his seniority if he was hired in the era you describe), he could now be a mid-level widebody FO on either coast making well over $200k, 16% 401k, well into 5-figure profit sharing, so...

Exactly.... the original poster left the story back in 2007....that UAL '00 hire (while admittedly having a rocky path) should be currently sitting in pretty good shape.

Your hope is misguided.
You do not get what you deserve, you get what you have the leverage to negotiate.

All those guys flying sick, fatigued, doing standups, picking up trips, dropping the brake. They take away your leverage. They might as well just take money right out of your wallet.

Part of the reason Legacy Pilot pay is so much higher, is their sell out of scope and subsequent 'B scale' regional pay. What happens when the big 3 can no longer fly 40% of their passengers on regionals?

You're conflating correlation with causation: sub-standard regional pay was expanded to the extent it has been at the point of a gun as bankruptcy courts dictated terms. In today's market, the reality is that that flying will be brought in-house and those former regional pilots will be paid close to 200% what they were formerly paid to fly the same or similar routes/equipment.

There are half as many legacies as there used to be. Have you seen their quarterly earnings? Have you seen the orders the big three are currently taking delivery of? Have you seen those pay rates? Have you seen the retirement graphs?

The supply/demand curve is a beautiful thing when it benefits YOU.

You're partially correct.

The mid term ESOP at UAL opened up the scope at UAL, contract 2000 even more. So even through there was the "gun to the head" of bankruptcy and the 70 seat gives away on round 2, that's not the complete story. Pilots willingly gave up scope on CBA's BEFORE 9/11. The BK/post 911 era just took it further.

Contract 2000 was a heavy jets for RJ's exchange.

"Don't worry about those RJs, you'll be a widebody CA!!!!!"

Ha ha, right......

Exactly, ask a senior UAL pilot on C2000 or a DAL pilot on C2001.

"Scope is junior guys problem....."

There's many of us that STILL have it fresh in our minds.

And sadly, those that have short memories.

This all sounds great but I don't see how legacys can start paying their regional pilots 200% when they hire them all and still make money. Give or take a few percentage points, they fly 40% of their passengers on their regionals. Even with oil as cheap as it is, it would be a huge swing in cost if they even took over 10% from the regionals. I hope I'm wrong but
I think hard times are ahead for the big three. Delta seems in the best position with already a strong domestic operation.

You should be happy you have a job and not demand more $ or better benefits. You should carry your own personal blue latex gloves too.

Yeah, after 18 years of making 60K tops and being furloughed. But I guess having that sweet contract for the last 10 years of his career makes up for the 100K plus a year he lost for almost 2 decades.

What ever happened to your guy who said, "Dandy Day" on frequency changes?

Did he go to UAL?

They're starting the new clean plane initiative as well. RSV pilots will be called in to wash and wax the outside of the planes now. Also the Mx apprentice program gateway 10 will be interviewing shortly. This is where pilots get to shadow short staffed maintenance ops in order to fix aircraft at outstations while earning your A&P.

Hey I'll be an oncall mx at an outstation. My buddy down in mobile is one and he charges $500 just for him to pick up the phone. He makes so much money (lone mx for all the airlines in mobile)

LOL, no no no... you'll be doing it as part of your RSV guarantee. Efficiencies. You have to sacrifice to work here.
Profit above all.
Savety is our number one.

We had a write up at an outstation on Christmas Day. What do you think that paid??? $$$$$$

The myth of the furloughed pilot flipping burgers, going back as a supermarket clerk or toiling for years at a regional is mostly untrue. These were talented people. Most of the 20 plus double furloughees I have flown with over the last five or so years seemed to have landed on their feet and done surprisingly well. Many went back full time into the military (at a time of record military pay), some landed in a good corporate gig, one was at FAA headquarters, several went to defense contractors, and a few went to Spirit and JetBlue. Most were holding their own vs. the typical airline pilot of that lost decade. Many were doing so well (or maybe where a little gun shy) that when United started recalling it was initially only a trickle of returning pilots. After several pay bumps, a giant cushion of new hires and a good contract with furlough longevity credit, most came back. I rarely fly with them anymore as most have moved on to the greener pastures of Widebody or Captain flying...

Cool story.

As you say, "Cool story." But that leans heavily on not letting facts get in the way of a good story.

Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel good about the decisions you've made, AMIRIGHT?

Not defending WhiteHammer but who's to say you're not doing the exact same thing? Sure you can say today that being a United pilot is superior to being a JetBlue pilot but could you say that even 5 years ago? 10 years ago? No. You or I don't know what the future brings to either pilot group. We're far behind the United contract yes. But we're still negotiating our first contract in the history of our airline. We've always had a steep hill to climb. We're only part of the way there too. We've still got a long road ahead of us. Patience is very important right now. We cannot have pilots, especially JetBlue pilots, arguing with each other. We need to remain "United" and push for the contract we deserve.

I always wonder why United guys are bothering with a JetBlue thread....it's not like they are coming here. That's like me going to my old regional forum and giving those guys a hard time.

I guess it's a free country.

Yes yes yet another thread about how much JetBlue sucks just what we need

It's for the blue chips. Everyone loves blue chips.

It me I hate the things ;)

Well maybe because we're in the major section and those guys want us to succeed. It's like your big brother or buddies busting balls all the time. Yeah it sucks for awhile, but later you look back and realize it's exactly what you needed to get in gear

Not a bad theory

Let me introduce you to your brother
BeeWatcher

Pretty much.

What some guys don't understand is, it wasn't that long ago that a L-UAL widebody CA/FO that's maxed out made LESS than an JB 190 CA/FO makes now.

And while UAL/CAL were busy with the merger, DAL was light years ahead of them. It's called "pattern bargaining", many don't seem to understand the concept.....

Or they would rather skip over that part of aviation history.

They had a concessionary contract back then. It is apples and oranges compassion. Let's not forget the E190 pay rates at JetBlue just a few years ago.

I'm was just sayin'.......

But if you got em, throw up the old/pre current PEA rates and you can see how not even they sucked (that bad) compared to L-UAL's BK rates.

You sir win the prize...well said... I actually hope you guys get a contract that is far superior to ours and move the bar much higher. But what I see and hear troubles me... your management has no intention of giving up anything and your pilot force has never been in a protracted contract war. This is your first war. You get an 8% raise and give up 5% in profit sharing...Your success or failure will effect us all. Piloting should be a fixed cost but management always tries to make it a variable one...a race to the bottom. I threw grenades at our pilot force and Alpa when we needed them...I rode Southwest pilots hard until they got a good contract...You are ground zero now...I bust your balls because your fate is our fate...