Conversation
 

I had a conversation with a farm kid the other day. He an I own adjoining property and we are working together to pipe my irrigation water under the driveway he was building. It turns out that last year he blew a fortune to get his helicopter private license. His goal was to be a professional but he quit at the private.

He went on to tell me that his instructor one day laid out for him the next ten years of his life as a pilot. He told him that if he was "lucky" he would instruct for a few years then move to the south to fly for the oil rigs and eventually be able to move on to something else. All the while living in tents and making low wages.

He did not know my background as an airline pilot when I asked him "why he decided to quit". He then told me that he could not understand why he would go through all that to make such miserable wages when he could stay home and continue to split land and make far more money while doing much less. It just did not make sense to him.

Besides all that he told me that he still needed another 50 to 80K or so to finish. Why he could "buy another 20 acres with that", he said.

SkyHigh

Simple - guess he would rather work with his land than fly aircraft.
Like we keep saying - to each hos own.
I'd rather fly than buy 20 acres.

I'm Just sayin
 

I was just sharing a chat I had with a neighbor is all.

Skyhigh

i'd rather buy the 20 acres, and fly when I want to............

I have not posted here in a while but I just had to since I am really confused. Do pilots really like flying ALL THAT MUCH? or are they in denial and now that they pay QOL is so bad they have come up with some excuse why they are not moving on from this career. Rather than admit that they made the wrong decission by becoming a pilot they preffer to defend their possition by any means necessary. I'd rather fly than be at home with my family... Seriously, is flying that much fun after you have been doing it for a while? I mean driving a car for the first month was fun but then it got boring. How much is it to sit in a aluminum can for hours at end while staring at an empty sky? Spare me the typical speech "sunrise from a cockpit is better than sitting in front of a cubicle" I'd rather sleep through the sunset and get up at reasonable hour to go my cubicle and be home 8 hours later with my wife. Is flying with some stranger sitting right next to you that much more satisfying than spending time at home with a family? Oh, and may I mention that at the end of that exciting 4 day you come home to unpaid bills and realization that your neighbor working construction makes more than you do? Is flying really that much fun?

By the nature of some posts and the grammar and spelling involved, some should stick to splitting the land rather than fly :D
The only way I could ever strike up such conversations is if I asked, or the guy doing the work dropped a comment.

Here is what I think happened:

There was this sweaty kid outside ripping through 4 inches of concrete, when skyhigh decided to walk out in his uniform and say:

Skyhigh: "Hi, you know, I'm a Pilot!"
Other guy: "Oh, really?"
Skyhigh: "Yeah, I've got a long list of hours and all the ratings, but I no longer fly"
Other: "That sucks, what happened?"
Skyhigh: "Oh, there was this kid that came up to the flightdeck and I asked if he had ever seen a grown man naked"
Other: "Yeah, that takes care of it"
Skyhigh: "Do you fly?"
Other: "Oh yeah, I have 4000 hours in Helicopters on Flight Simulator"
Skyhigh: "So why are you doing this?"
Other: "Oh, I've got no clue, I have 9 kids from 10 different women, and gotta make those alimony payments"
Skyhigh: "Wow, that sucks!"
Skyhigh: "Are you guys hiring?"

Never ran into anyone that was either able to recognize me as a pilot, nor have I ever had an conversation with a stranger and found out through it that the other guy was a pilot.

:D I was having a similar conversation with one of our young simulator operators the other day. He was talking about going to ERU and wanting to be a professional pilot and I found myself laying out much the same career path that you spoke to your neighbor about - including all the pitfalls along the way! No doubt education is important.

USMCFLYR

It is hard not to know that your neighbor is a pilot....

Learflyer -

I hear you on this. The problem with me on this is that I can't do the TYPE of flying that I want to do unless I'm doing it for someone else :) Owning 20 acres of land and flying when I want to would be fun if all I wanted to do was to take my light twin (like I could even afford that!) for a cruise down the beach to a nice dinner (weekend) somewhere for example; but at this point I still have aspirations of something bigger. I can't own that 20 acres and still fly a nice bizjet all over the US, Canada, and the Caribbean and maybe someday/somewhere internationally. That day will come I think. I have always loved flying more than what I fly and I hope the day is in my future when I can be happy with that recreational flying that I miss so much right now.

USMCFLYR

That day WILL come for you. Just wait these bad times out. I've had that day, now I just do it part time!:)

I was goiing to mention
 

The farm kid did continue on to mention that if he stuck with land splitting he imagined that he could buy a Robinson R22 in a few years and fly for himself.

My position is that we all love flying and have our dreams however it has become too costly for the average person anymore. The helicopter guy was making a rational comparison between his career prospects and the cost it took to get there.

I would say that most people would feel the same. Flying is fun but it just demands too much of your life.

Skyhigh

"The helicopter guy was making a rational comparison between his career prospects and the cost it took to get there."

I wonder why he didn't do that before he even started? The helicoptor biz has always been harder to get into, higher cost to train, and a lower paying career. It's been that way for a long, long, time. Yet, many folks seem to be happy doing that job. More power to them. Whenever a kid asks me about a flying helicopters for a living, I tell him to join the army to fly. You don't even need a four year degree. But, I don't think there are nearly as many 100K chopper jobs as fixed wing jobs.

Delusions of Grandeur
 

I imagine that he started his training with the same delusions of grandeur that fixed with guys start with. It just seems silly to think that after all the sacrifices that pilots would make so little, but they do.

Usually it is too late by the time reality begins to sink in.

SkyHigh

"I'd rather sleep through the sunset and get up at reasonable hour to go my cubicle and be home 8 hours later with my wife."

Whatever works for you. Glad it's working out. Not everyone could stand working in a cubicle at any cost. Some pilots live in their base, bid reserve, and might do 7 overnights a month. That's one way to be home a lot as an airline pilot.

"Seriously, is flying that much fun after you have been doing it for a while?"

I think so. It loses some lustre, no doubt, over the years. But my worst day flying is better than my best day as a plumber or cubicle worker. To each his own...

"Is flying with some stranger sitting right next to you that much more satisfying than..."

Sounds like you didn't enjoy your work enviornment much. It was best you found something else.

To each his own
 

"To each his own" is all well and good however my position is that aviation does not suit the needs of the majority anymore.

Most people like the idea of having a family and middle class lifestyle. Aviation use to be a profession that could meet the needs of the average person. Over the last ten years however flying careers have really lost a lot. We are to the point now where the average guy can not survive the demands of an aviation career and be able to preserve the rest of his life too.

Now if someone is a confirmed bachelor or millionaire playboy then the rules do not apply. Under those conditions I imagine that they are quite happy with it. My point is that it is false advertising to tell others that they would be happy too without adding the other conditions. Lets hope that there are enough single millionaires guys to go around.

Skyhigh

"take my light twin (like I could even afford that!) for a cruise down the beach to a nice dinner (weekend) somewhere"

Hey, I got one of those. Ever heard of Harris Ranch? 3O8

"To each his own" is all well and good however my position is that aviation does not suit the needs of the majority anymore."

Yeah, Sky, we get that. I simply think you're wrong. That's why I'm here.

It's been at least a couple of days, so I guess it was time for the dude to bash the profession. Go back to your cubicle. I promise not to make repeated, monotonous posts about how much your profession(whatever that may be)/compensation/etc. sucks if you do the same.

I love being a non bachelor millionaire playboy.
Working on the twin though :D
Sky - take your 150 and just do it, you'll see its so much more fun to waste money that trying to convince others that you made a bad choice, and the same could happen to them...

Hey Mr. UPS, gotta seat? Lets spend some undeserved money, I'll pay for the fuel, you pay for some filthy expensive dinner place.

I am wrong
 

I hope that you realize that you are a single guy who has probably one of the best jobs in the country.

The vast majority people will not be able to come even close to getting half of what you have. Is it possible that you could put yourself into their shoes? Imagine what it would be like to be stuck in a strange city and trying to make it on 30K with a family in tow.

You have a rare and unusual situation. You do not represent the needs of the average person or pilot. You do not share a common background with most pilots on this forum. You were not in the military and as far as I know did not fly for a regional.

You have been gainfully employed for most of 20 years now. How can you claim to say that I am wrong when you have not walked a mile in my shoes?

Skyhigh

Why is it so important to you that people walk in your shoes?
I don't think anyone is trying to tell you that you are wrong. You are just not playing with a full deck if you tell people that this job is so bad.

I ask, why are there thousands of kids getting into it, if what you say is general knowledge?

Sky. You've met me. I've flown your plane. You are friends with the first CFI I ever had. You live 25 miles from where I grew up.

I've been furloughed, between jobs, and otherwise have seen the tough times that are part of the career.

I walked in your shoes right up until the day you decided to do something else for a living...

Nothing wrong with quitting. It was a good call for you if one looks at the combination of your distaste for the career, your unwillingness to leave WA state, and your family situation. More power to ya.

I just disagree that, family or not, everyone should run away from a job where you can make 100K a year and work half the month. Kinda like where you'd be if you stayed at Horizon. And I also disagree that being a plumber or office worker, just to be home every night, makes those careers a better deal than being a pilot.

Not even
 

I don't know how you come up with this stuff. I know very accurately where I would be had I stayed at Horizon Air. I am friends with the guy who was one number ahead of me and with the guy who is one number below me.

Neither of them is making even close to 100K. Both of them expect to come close to being downgraded within the next year. On top of that they are gone much more than when I was there with them.

Besides all that I have spent most of my adult life as a pilot living and working away from my home state. I am not opposed to making a sacrifice but there had better be a light at the end of the tunnel.

SkyHigh

My Point
 

I am not trying to stop a true believer from joining the ranks. The problem it that there is a lot of mis-information out there. People are being led into false expectations in order to sell pilots licenses.

Thousands of kids are getting into an over bloated market only to find out later that they have wasted years of their lives and a small fortune. There are 40,000 applications at SWA. Pilots who meet SWA's high standards for the hope of 400 jobs.

The only way this profession makes financial sense is for there to be a job at SWA or UPS within a few years of graduating. 39,600 pilots will leave empty handed.

Skyhigh

I guess that makes you average or below, and the rest of us are above average.








.

"I don't know how you come up with this stuff. I know very accurately where I would be had I stayed at Horizon Air."

I thought you were at Horizon in 1996. That would make you a 12th year Capt, today. According to APC, 12th year jet Capts make about 97K. ($101/hr times 80 hour guarantee times 12). Add in per diem and you're at 100K.

It's true that the jets are going away and they are going to furlough, but Horizon is a good company and when the economy bounces back I think they will be fine.

"I am not trying to stop a true believer from joining the ranks."

Really? Could have fooled me.....

"The problem it that there is a lot of mis-information out there. People are being led into false expectations in order to sell pilots licenses."

I agree. But if you want to save the world, you're in the wrong place. Go over to Jetcareers and bash the big academy marketing tactics, like I do. It's great fun. They hate me at the ATP forum....

I agree with DE(and that has not always been the case), a true believer no matter what knowledge they possess will do it no matter what. I also think DE is right, Sky you might want to go over to JC and post to the newbies that would actually benefit from your +20yrs of professional flying experience. They're the ones that would benefit from some of the harsh realities of professional flying that a newbie is not exposed to in the flashy ads from places like ATP, etc.

For the most part I agree with most of Sky's comments, but sometimes it does get overly negative. I know plenty of my friends that are happy with their careers in aviation no matter what the setbacks they've suffered. My experience was different than theirs so were my priorities, hence they are willing to put up with certain aspects of the job I'm not. More power to those who do. Either way I think we can all agree that we'd all like to see improvements in the industry for the betterment of the pilot group.

I'm only speaking for myself here - but I am bored to tears of flying. I did data entry for a year in college, so I know what it's like to be bored. And yes - I am that bored on just about every flight I do. Damn bored! It's one of the reasons I want out. I feel myself growing older each flight. Oh well, at least I can read the paper, and that'll pass a few minutes. /yawn

Yet I fly with guys who seem enthralled with it. I was once, too. But the guys I'm flying with have been flying as long as I or longer. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

My thought is this:

Since the 50's families have increasingly required TWO incomes for a middle class life. America also now competes, not so much dominates, in global economics. Competition tends to level the playing field.

So the folks in China, India, etc. are getting more of our lifestyle, while our American lifestyle becomes harder maintain without working harder.

Deregulation and management aside, I don't think we young folks can expect to do the same job for the same pay and time off any more. The WORLD is changing. Pilots are just one ingredient in the global market.

Increased efficiency and competition. Makes everyone lean and mean. And so are our paychecks.

Wow
 

You are probably right. Especially in jobs that are global in perspective. A city firefighter probably has more negotiating power than in international airline pilot. Why would UAL pay more than BA or Air India?

SKyHigh

JetCareers
 

JC is a bunch of screaming children. They revel at how masterfully they can put each other down. There is no way to have an intelligent debate with that bunch of screaming hooligans.

I prefer to post here and to enjoy and exchange with people who actually have life experience and something valuable to say. It has more value to those reading as well.

Skyhigh

Following up on block30's argument.....Exactly Right, which is why it's disingenuous for a senior guy to pawn off the realities of the brave new world to the young guys as if it was (as always, the tired mantra) a function of hard work, perserverance (the 'you can't hack it' argument) and mere time.

Late Gen X'rs, Gen Y's and beyond will never see the industry of 20 years ago, it'll never get better, so essentially the only people who would be able to be content with the current gig will have to be those that 1) do not need the income and 2) those who can accept the lifestyle and inelastic work force as it is offered. In that respect Skyhigh is doing a great job at providing a sobering look at the realities for the median.

My biggest gripe in college in my formal field of study was that everybody signed up after the big ol speech from whoever at Lockheed Martin or Boeing, talking about the great 20 year career, when during the whole 45 minutes everybody had selective hearing about the fact he was project manager yet actually didn't even go up the ranks of industry, was actually a late bloomer and his career was more fucntion of chance than effort. Yet instead of realizing the complexities of how this gentleman came to be at the place he was, people chose to presuppose in their minds that what that gentleman did was what they all stood a chance at doing when they got done with the college racket. And pilots are just the same way. Everybody looks with depressing short-sightedness at what they wish their day to day would entail, when in reality they are just aspiring to an ideal state that statistically few can hold at any one time. Yet instead of accepting that cost they turn back at people like skyhigh who recognized the full cost and call him a whiner. I don't expect people in de's position to recognize skyhigh's circumstances as legitimate, it falls outside of his working construct, therefore only a quitter could have bestowed upon himself sky's fate, but for people on here who are NOT banking like DE's , YOU are the exemplification of the problem, because you choose to look at the conman selling you sh$t in a bag and you eat it anyways because you believe that success is a matter of proxy rather than chance, and you're too chicken to about face the industry that's treated your household so poorly, and do something to better your financial situation instead of dragging your feet and chasing every which crap job that keeps you current. Functional addiction I call it.

If you say you can't succeed, you're right.






.

"I prefer to post here and to enjoy and exchange with people who actually have life experience and something valuable to say."

Skyhigh, today.

"To whom I address when I write a post is really the 18 year old kid with an ocean of life's paths to choose from"

Skyhigh 3/14/08

Maybe I could tolerate Skyhigh's threads a little better if I could figure out what he's trying to do. So many contradictions.

When I hear he's "saving the newb from an airline career", I point him to the place he could do that but he's never interested. So much for that idea...

One thing to remember guys is that all of you are arguing with totally different perspectives on aviation.....what I mean by this is that I can honestly say that I and a majority of the guys that I flew with on the airbus pretty much looked at it as a "job" because we did the same thing over and over, push back, sat there for 2+ hours, landed, hotel, beer, sleep...then maybe a little more beer. There were times I don't think I even looked outside during cruise for the entire 4 hour flight to LGA.

I can remember when I was a cfi and landed my first jet job in a lear, I thought I was king kong and then came the RJ, oh man 50 pax, I am finally a real pilot. Finally the airbus, I thought I had finally made it. 1000 hours later I am starting to feel like the little guy again parked next to the 777.

I am totally cool leaving because I got to make it to my goal. You have someone who might be a CFI right now arguing about how great aviation is with someone like SKY who has been there done that. Not to say others on here like UPS who are extremely qualified, but he is in a great spot and with his situation it works for him.

Its just funny to me to hear so many different arguments about aviation when half of the guys on here are in so many different levels in there aviation career.

I bet if we got 10 senior captains at a major airline to all come on and give us there perspective it would be interesting, but I would guess that majority would tell us to do something different.

Absolutely. One perspective is, "I left the profession because it can't be done." The other perspective is, "We're living proof it can be done." I think one perspective is far more legitimate.



I get the same feeling taxiing the mighty MD-11 around Narita or Incheon or Osaka. With a ramp full of nothing else but 747s, we're the little guy. I thought you said you were bored? How's that possible?




I doubt that.






.

"I bet if we got 10 senior captains at a major airline to all come on and give us there perspective it would be interesting, but I would guess that majority would tell us to do something different."

Well, that maybe. The longer you're in the biz, the more you think "the grass is greener" doing something else and you complain about having to go to work at all. I think that's human nature. In the end, you still have to convince me to bash a career where you can make 100K working half the month. It's not for everyone, but I think it's a pretty worthy way to make a living, especially if you like operating large machinery.

"taxiing the mighty MD-11 around Narita or Incheon or Osaka. With a ramp full of nothing else but 747s, we're the little guy."

HAHA...you should try it in a 76. Talk about feeling small....

TonyC my point was you have a guy here who is single and has 500 hrs and is trying to make the argument that aviation is a great career and those that are leaving have no idea what they are going to miss.

I respect the opinions from those who actually know what it is that I am going to miss and those who have taken the bold step to do something else.

TonyC, have you ever heard the saying if it sounds too good to be true than most likely it is? That typically is aviation. Not always, but has proven to be the case just when you think life is great, aviation has another plan for you 1,2,5 years down the road. The difference is that I don't want to be starting over at 55 years old, I would rather leave while I have time to establish myself in a new industry.