How to become a doctor for real
12-03-2008, 09:11 PM
#1
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 105
How to become a doctor for real
Not sure if anyone here is really interested in becoming a physician, but as I alluded to I had considered this path myself and done extensive research on going from someone with a bachelor's degree in a non science-related field to medical school. I'm not an expert, but at least I am being honest about the limits of my expertise. Here's what I know.
To apply to medical school, you need one year EACH of chemistry, organic chemistry, physics and biology. Some medical schools have additional requirements, such as microbiology. All of these classes must be with lab, so they cannot be taken as online courses. There are several so-called “post-baccalaureate pre-medical” programs that allow you to take the medical school prerequisites on an accelerated basis, but they still take one academic year plus a summer of intensive, full-time study… and they are very expensive, around $25-$30K. At the end of the program you would be ready to take the MCAT, the standardized test for medical school.
This is just to meet the MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS in order to APPLY to medical school.
Then you have the application process, which takes another year (most medical schools have a deadline of October or November, to enter the following August or September). Some of the programs I mentioned previously do have special agreements with certain medical schools that allow you to skip the application year, and start medical school immediately after completing the basic science prerequisite program.
Once you’re in, medical school is four years. It is a grueling academic program, with little time to sleep let alone maintain outside employment. The final two years are clinical rotations that are scheduled on an on-going basis, so you don’t even have the traditional summer vacation and spring break that you have as a college student. Tuition at private medical schools is usually around $40K per year.
After that, you have residency, which is a minimum of three years for primary care specialties or basic internal medicine. Residency is even more grueling that medical school. 36-hour shifts are common, and recent rules to limit residents to 80 hours per week are frequently ignored or not enforced. Other specialties are even longer. Surgery is five years. If you want a medical sub-specialty like cardiology, that requires an internal medicine residency PLUS a three-year fellowship, for a total of SIX YEARS of residency. By the way, residents usually make around $40K.
If you decided, today, that you want to become a doctor and you don’t have the basic sciences completed, and you took the most accelerated track possible, you would not complete the shortest residency until the summer of 2016. If you financed the entire thing with debt, you would probably START your residency with $190K (40K times four years of med school, plus $30K for the science prereqs). You could try going to an in-state school and save on tuition, but it would take longer because no state schools have accelerated agreements with any of the post-baccalaureate pre-medical programs. Also, since most medical school have an acceptance rate of 3 to 5 percent, most applicants apply to dozens of schools and hope to get into one or two. They usually don’t get their pick. Check out US News and World Report’s graduate school issue if you don’t believe me. Even schools like the University of Iowa that don’t sound as prestigious as Johns Hopkins or Harvard have the same low acceptance rate.
Oh, and the $190K assumes you are able to pay for personal expenses on your own without debt. Because residents are paid so low, most of them defer payments on loans until they complete their residency. But interest accrues during that time. At 7% (good luck!), 190K would become 233K in three years. At 20 years repayment, that works out to $1,804 a month. (I’m not an MD, but I’ve been a CPA for more than eight years, so you can trust me on the number crunching).
If you make $160K, which is probably on the high side for a specialty that requires only a three-year residency, your take-home pay would be around 8,000 a month (assuming a 40% average tax rate… probably low, considering the way things will be in eight years with incoming president and congress). After your student loan payment, you would have 6,200 a month left. Not a bad salary, although you would have no or minimal income for the prior eight years or so. You probably do have better than average job security, as well as a lot of personal satisfaction and prestige… which, when you think about the sacrifice involved, is rather well-deserved.
This is all just for illustration, I'm sure everyone knows someone who makes more, or less, or had less debt, or more. I think this is a realistic overview of what you can expect the process to require.
To apply to medical school, you need one year EACH of chemistry, organic chemistry, physics and biology. Some medical schools have additional requirements, such as microbiology. All of these classes must be with lab, so they cannot be taken as online courses. There are several so-called “post-baccalaureate pre-medical” programs that allow you to take the medical school prerequisites on an accelerated basis, but they still take one academic year plus a summer of intensive, full-time study… and they are very expensive, around $25-$30K. At the end of the program you would be ready to take the MCAT, the standardized test for medical school.
This is just to meet the MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS in order to APPLY to medical school.
Then you have the application process, which takes another year (most medical schools have a deadline of October or November, to enter the following August or September). Some of the programs I mentioned previously do have special agreements with certain medical schools that allow you to skip the application year, and start medical school immediately after completing the basic science prerequisite program.
Once you’re in, medical school is four years. It is a grueling academic program, with little time to sleep let alone maintain outside employment. The final two years are clinical rotations that are scheduled on an on-going basis, so you don’t even have the traditional summer vacation and spring break that you have as a college student. Tuition at private medical schools is usually around $40K per year.
After that, you have residency, which is a minimum of three years for primary care specialties or basic internal medicine. Residency is even more grueling that medical school. 36-hour shifts are common, and recent rules to limit residents to 80 hours per week are frequently ignored or not enforced. Other specialties are even longer. Surgery is five years. If you want a medical sub-specialty like cardiology, that requires an internal medicine residency PLUS a three-year fellowship, for a total of SIX YEARS of residency. By the way, residents usually make around $40K.
If you decided, today, that you want to become a doctor and you don’t have the basic sciences completed, and you took the most accelerated track possible, you would not complete the shortest residency until the summer of 2016. If you financed the entire thing with debt, you would probably START your residency with $190K (40K times four years of med school, plus $30K for the science prereqs). You could try going to an in-state school and save on tuition, but it would take longer because no state schools have accelerated agreements with any of the post-baccalaureate pre-medical programs. Also, since most medical school have an acceptance rate of 3 to 5 percent, most applicants apply to dozens of schools and hope to get into one or two. They usually don’t get their pick. Check out US News and World Report’s graduate school issue if you don’t believe me. Even schools like the University of Iowa that don’t sound as prestigious as Johns Hopkins or Harvard have the same low acceptance rate.
Oh, and the $190K assumes you are able to pay for personal expenses on your own without debt. Because residents are paid so low, most of them defer payments on loans until they complete their residency. But interest accrues during that time. At 7% (good luck!), 190K would become 233K in three years. At 20 years repayment, that works out to $1,804 a month. (I’m not an MD, but I’ve been a CPA for more than eight years, so you can trust me on the number crunching).
If you make $160K, which is probably on the high side for a specialty that requires only a three-year residency, your take-home pay would be around 8,000 a month (assuming a 40% average tax rate… probably low, considering the way things will be in eight years with incoming president and congress). After your student loan payment, you would have 6,200 a month left. Not a bad salary, although you would have no or minimal income for the prior eight years or so. You probably do have better than average job security, as well as a lot of personal satisfaction and prestige… which, when you think about the sacrifice involved, is rather well-deserved.
This is all just for illustration, I'm sure everyone knows someone who makes more, or less, or had less debt, or more. I think this is a realistic overview of what you can expect the process to require.
12-03-2008, 09:31 PM
#3
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
I mentioned it once before and I'll mention it again. This is only a guess, but for your average 30 year old pilot with 3000 total and 1000 PIC turbine (for exampe), with no interest in medicine whatsoever, and a degree in aviation, to all the sudden decide to be a doctor cause he can make 300K. Well, I'll submit that he has about the same chance to wait it out, hope for the best in the biz in 15 years, and make 300K as a pilot.
"No one can really say what will happen" Skyhigh 5/20/08
"No one can really say what will happen" Skyhigh 5/20/08
12-04-2008, 01:10 AM
#4
New Hire
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 5
Laughs
LOL! Oh, man. I don't usually post at all, but de727ups just cracks me up with his Sky quotes, awesome!
As for the original post, it seems as though it's twice as tough to become an MD in the US than in my country (Norway). Here it's 6 years with no school fees, then ca. 1 year residency. I don't know much about the specifics, but in general terms that's how it works here.
Heck, everything seems to be easier here. Becoming a pilot doesn't require a 4 year college degree and then 10 years in a poor paying regional. I feel like a really spoiled kid!
As for the original post, it seems as though it's twice as tough to become an MD in the US than in my country (Norway). Here it's 6 years with no school fees, then ca. 1 year residency. I don't know much about the specifics, but in general terms that's how it works here.
Heck, everything seems to be easier here. Becoming a pilot doesn't require a 4 year college degree and then 10 years in a poor paying regional. I feel like a really spoiled kid!
12-04-2008, 03:01 AM
#5
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Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
RXS676 great post! Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. This kind of reasoned and specific argumentation is what makes APC worthwhile.
Being a doctor is a deep commitment, not something one undertakes because their present job isn't satisfying or doesn't pay so great. It's one of the most prestigious professions in human society. Those who make it through all that are motivated, organized, gifted, determined, and somewhat lucky.
I went to three years of a chemistry program that had a high success rate in bringing students to a place they could get good MCAT scores. While I realized that chemistry was not for me, I also came to know my classmates to be high quality students with altruistic motivations, very strong work ethic, and clever minds. They were special people and generally had better character than the engineering set I came to spend the next three years with. I admire doctors more since my experience of studying alongside them.
Being a doctor is a deep commitment, not something one undertakes because their present job isn't satisfying or doesn't pay so great. It's one of the most prestigious professions in human society. Those who make it through all that are motivated, organized, gifted, determined, and somewhat lucky.
I went to three years of a chemistry program that had a high success rate in bringing students to a place they could get good MCAT scores. While I realized that chemistry was not for me, I also came to know my classmates to be high quality students with altruistic motivations, very strong work ethic, and clever minds. They were special people and generally had better character than the engineering set I came to spend the next three years with. I admire doctors more since my experience of studying alongside them.
Last edited by Cubdriver; 12-04-2008 at 03:08 AM.
12-04-2008, 05:22 AM
#6
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by de727ups
I mentioned it once before and I'll mention it again. This is only a guess, but for your average 30 year old pilot with 3000 total and 1000 PIC turbine (for exampe), with no interest in medicine whatsoever, and a degree in aviation, to all the sudden decide to be a doctor cause he can make 300K. Well, I'll submit that he has about the same chance to wait it out, hope for the best in the biz in 15 years, and make 300K as a pilot.
"No one can really say what will happen" Skyhigh 5/20/08
"No one can really say what will happen" Skyhigh 5/20/08
Flying is fun and all but the live style is not for me.
12-04-2008, 06:42 AM
#7
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 105
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
Being a doctor is a deep commitment, not something one undertakes because their present job isn't satisfying or doesn't pay so great.
12-04-2008, 07:57 AM
#8
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,838
Heyas,
Great post and reasonably accurate.
I would add that many states have "in state" tuition that can considerably reduce the outlay from 50k a year to around 15k.
It can be a tough road, and as someone moves from their 20s, and into their 30s and 40s, the LONG footprint and considerable financial outlay, not to mention loss of wages, can put you on the wrong side of what is reasonable. You simply get to a point where you will never recoup the money invested. If you're ok with that, then I say go for it...after all, we're in an industry where people pay 100k to get a 20k job with crappy QoL.
There ARE alternatives to a MD. DOs are rapidly becoming as respected as MDs, and share a majority of residency programs. They're slightly easier to get into and they seem to like non-traditional students (anyone who didn't follow the typical route). There's also the Physician's Assistant route, which has a much smaller footprint.
The MCAT is difficult and can be a REAL hurdle. You just don't pick up a guilde and skim through it and take the test. I've watched smart kids prep for an entire year only to get mediocre score (high 20s).
Vet school is also an option, and has a shorter footprint (no internship or residency unless you specialize), but it is significantly harder to get into vet school than either an MD or DO program (far fewer schools) and despite what people think, what vets make is crap next to an MD. 55k out of school is not uncommon, and it really tops out at around 140-150k unless you run an uncommonly successful practice or specialize.
In any case, along with the grades/MCAT (GRE for Vet School), you need to have substantial volunteer time (1000+ hours) and shadowing time (where you follow a Dr) for them to even consider you. There is not a single school that does not have this requirement, and they will not consider ANYONE without this time.
As a general rule, to have a realistic shot at even a bottom rung MD school (US school), you really need a 3.5 GPA and a 34 on the MCAT. For every 0.1 GPA, you add/subtract 1 on the MCAT (3.6/33 or 3.4/35). If you have less than a 3.0, forget it...it's just not going to happen.
They count ALL undergrad grades (grad school grades are rarely considered), even grades from 20 years ago. Even going back an retaking some pre-requistites is of limited value because it's all averaged together. For Vet school, you need around a 3.7 and an 1200 on the GRE.
DO schools are slightly more flexible, and if you retake a class, those grades are substituted rather than averaged, BUT, they are rapidly becoming as competitive as MD schools.
I'd say that if you were in your mid 20s to early 30s, and can get in, and that's what you REALLY want to do, then I'd say go for it. As you get into your 30s, if you can get into an in-state school with the lower tuition and are willing to accept the loss of wages, then I'd day fine. Past that, and you are really past the point of diminishing returns unless you are REALLY into it.
www.studentdoctornetwork.com is a great place for non-traditional students to get information. They have a non-trad forum.
Nu
Great post and reasonably accurate.
I would add that many states have "in state" tuition that can considerably reduce the outlay from 50k a year to around 15k.
It can be a tough road, and as someone moves from their 20s, and into their 30s and 40s, the LONG footprint and considerable financial outlay, not to mention loss of wages, can put you on the wrong side of what is reasonable. You simply get to a point where you will never recoup the money invested. If you're ok with that, then I say go for it...after all, we're in an industry where people pay 100k to get a 20k job with crappy QoL.
There ARE alternatives to a MD. DOs are rapidly becoming as respected as MDs, and share a majority of residency programs. They're slightly easier to get into and they seem to like non-traditional students (anyone who didn't follow the typical route). There's also the Physician's Assistant route, which has a much smaller footprint.
The MCAT is difficult and can be a REAL hurdle. You just don't pick up a guilde and skim through it and take the test. I've watched smart kids prep for an entire year only to get mediocre score (high 20s).
Vet school is also an option, and has a shorter footprint (no internship or residency unless you specialize), but it is significantly harder to get into vet school than either an MD or DO program (far fewer schools) and despite what people think, what vets make is crap next to an MD. 55k out of school is not uncommon, and it really tops out at around 140-150k unless you run an uncommonly successful practice or specialize.
In any case, along with the grades/MCAT (GRE for Vet School), you need to have substantial volunteer time (1000+ hours) and shadowing time (where you follow a Dr) for them to even consider you. There is not a single school that does not have this requirement, and they will not consider ANYONE without this time.
As a general rule, to have a realistic shot at even a bottom rung MD school (US school), you really need a 3.5 GPA and a 34 on the MCAT. For every 0.1 GPA, you add/subtract 1 on the MCAT (3.6/33 or 3.4/35). If you have less than a 3.0, forget it...it's just not going to happen.
They count ALL undergrad grades (grad school grades are rarely considered), even grades from 20 years ago. Even going back an retaking some pre-requistites is of limited value because it's all averaged together. For Vet school, you need around a 3.7 and an 1200 on the GRE.
DO schools are slightly more flexible, and if you retake a class, those grades are substituted rather than averaged, BUT, they are rapidly becoming as competitive as MD schools.
I'd say that if you were in your mid 20s to early 30s, and can get in, and that's what you REALLY want to do, then I'd say go for it. As you get into your 30s, if you can get into an in-state school with the lower tuition and are willing to accept the loss of wages, then I'd day fine. Past that, and you are really past the point of diminishing returns unless you are REALLY into it.
www.studentdoctornetwork.com is a great place for non-traditional students to get information. They have a non-trad forum.
Nu
12-04-2008, 08:52 AM
#9
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 105
Originally Posted by NuGuy
I would add that many states have "in state" tuition that can considerably reduce the outlay from 50k a year to around 15k.
However, most medical schools have very, very low acceptance rates, even state schools. Back when I pursuing this, the conventional wisdom was that you applied to 10-20 schools, and hopefully you would be accepted to one or two. Even excellent students often don't get their first choice of medical school, and if you're contemplating this, I don't think you can or should count on being able to go to a state school.
