For Skyhigh...
 

This could have been you, but you left the career!:D

A recent class at Alaska

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I thought I'd pass along some stats from a recent class here at Alaska.

10 men, 1 woman
4 from Horizon
2 from McChord AFB
3 with Alaska regional flying. PenAir, ERA, LAB
1 brother of one of our captains
4 live in Gig Harbor
10 are married

Bottom line: All have strong ties to the Pacific Northwest. They all live around here and most got their flying experience around here or Alaska.

Thanks
 

Clutchcargo,

Thanks for the heads up. I could have been one of the lucky four to have gotten hired by Alaska Airlines from Horizon Air in the last decade or so. Most likely however I would be passed over like my peers who are still there.

I think it is important to take a step back and consider that Alaska Airlines has not hired many over the last decade. Four from Horizon is hardly a windfall. Nor does it offer much hope for the remaining 700 or so Horizon Airlines hopefuls.

My likely fate had I stayed at Horizon Air today would have been living in a small starter house on a captains salary and reeling from the news that I was being forcibly transferred to another base while also fearing a downgrade after 12 years with the company.

The reality is there there is not much room for most at the legacy airlines and life at a regional is not what I signed up for. Lastly I feel obligated to mention again that I did not quit but was laid off and could not find another job that would support my family as a pilot.

I understand that those of you who have made it can not understand what the problem is. Not every story in aviation has a happy ending. It is my position that most do not and the price of falling even an inch short is punishing.

Skyhigh

Ha Ha that's funny/depressing. "So you're telling me there's a chance YEAH!!!" D&D :rolleyes:

AND they just opened the hiring window again......For the record Sky.... he said you LEFT the profession not that you quit.

Glad things are going well for you Sky. I don't discount your message just the delivery.

Actually Sky your numbers are wrong on the total of Horizon pilots :) According to APC's info there are 620 active Horizon pilots. So based on that calculation and ClutchCargo's number of 4 being hired that makes it 0.65% of the Horizon pilots are going to Alaska Airlines in this class. However, they did make up 35% of the total class CC mentions. I'm actually surprised they don't hire more of the Horizon guys/gals... Those are the facts.

Left or Quit?
 

It feels more like the profession left me. I was laid off and could not find a replacement job as a pilot that would support my family.

I am still here even.

Skyhigh

The facts
 

Rnav,

When I was there Horizon Air had around 745 pilots. They have shrunk. Another exciting development in the airlines.

One reason Alaska Airlines avoids hiring pilots from Horizon Air is that they then have to hire and train a replacement for the departing Horizon Air guy. It makes more business sense to hire from the competitor. Make them pay the training costs. Another reason is that they use hiring practices as a passive form of punishment on the regional guys. Do what we say and we will hire a few.

Skyhigh

My home airport
 

I was told recently that at my home airport a Cessna 152 rents for almost $110/hour. :eek: The twin is bumping up against $400. Costco mentioned in their magazine last summer that a four year public university degree costs $200,000.

Pilots all need to be making UPS wages soon after graduation in order to make this profession pencil out.

Skyhigh

In 1974 I paid $23/hr for a C-150 with instructor. That's $101 in 2010 dollars. It would seem that aircraft rental has not exceeded inflation by very much. Especially when you consider that 100/130 AvGas was .58/gal. What is it now? 5 or 6 dollars/gal?

In 1981 I earned $600/mo base pay
as a CFI. That's about $1400 in 2010 dollars. What does a CFI make now?

Regards,
Clutch

Must be on the 6-8 year plan.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Although more Americans are getting help from scholarships and tax breaks, the net cost of college is eating up a higher share of the typical family's income in 2011, according to a report released Wednesday.
The sticker price of studying and living on campus at the average public university rose 5.4% for in-state students, or about $1,100, to $21,447 this fall, the College Board estimated.

You really believe this stuff?

Regards,
Clutch

So you are saying that in the last ten years Alaska has hired a total of four (4) pilots from Horizon and that was all in the most recent class?

Regards,
Clutch

Yes
 

Yep, I lived it. During the years I was at Horizon Air Alaska Airlines hired over 80 pilots from Skywest and only 4 from Horizon Air.

Skyhigh

Not too many
 

Clutch,

Alaska has not hired to many pilots over the last ten years. I don't have to number but it is only a handful from Horizon Air. My point is that it is a long shot to make the conversion to AS. Most end up getting stuck at QX.

When I was a flight student my initial instructors were hired by Horizon Air. We all were so excited for them. Next stop the majors. Well it has been over 20 years since then and they are all still there.

Skyhigh

Total Cost
 

College is more than tuition and books. There are living expenses and opportunity costs to consider. It was Costco's article.

Skyhigh

The ladder
 

As you climb the ladder of aviation you get to visit with a lot of pilots. Their stories are all worth knowing. Most are individuals who had gotten stuck along the way and know that they will never reach their dreams. Now they have to live a greatly discounted version of their once youthful hopes while others who do essentially the same job get paid three times as much for doing less.

It was there fault really. Things happened to them like; they got married, got too old, too fat, were furloughed, hit a recession when it was their turn to move on to the majors. There is a long list of little things that can stop an aviation career in its tracks. At one time they were young and hopeful too. Now a cautionary tale to be learned from.

Eventually however you begin to realize that you are very similar to those who fell short. You begin to see the same story play out in you career. A recession, birthdays begin to go by faster, lay off or two and the reality begins to sink in.

Skyhigh

Sky,
Lay off the barbituates. This post was too much of a downer -- you accurately described my recent past and probable future! :(:p

The great part of flying is what I quoted from you above: the pilots you meet and the stories you hear. My workplace is full of pilots with failed airline dreams, or more accurately, pilots who weighed the probability of progressing from their unsatisfactory life at a regional airline to a good life at a legacy airline and found the probability not worth the sacrifice.

We've got great people where I work, and I really enjoy working with them and talking with them. Besides the ex-regional pilots we also have a bunch of ex-military pilots (Dutch, German, US, and even a Romanian MiG driver). It's an eclectic and very interesting group, and they're a lot of fun to be around.

Well, the only reason I'm critiquing you here is to satisfy USMCFLYR, who wants me to be "balanced". I think he's a little off-kilter himself, and was nearly incomprehensible in his banter with GoPats on a recent thread, but try to humor him -- as a former Marine I'm sure he finds nearly everything around him incomprehensible.

You have a positive role here Sky. Without you and a few others, this place might be mistaken for an Amway meeting (not that there is anything wrong with Amway, which is just one of the companies I offer you in my multi-level marketing empire :D).

I actually believe that companies like Alaska waive the carrot in front of Horizon employees like Skyhigh is saying. Plenty of companies do it. The government agency i work for does the same crap.

But with that being said, if those employees know that's how the companies operate the employees shouldn't pin their hopes on working for Alaska. Apply overseas or somewhere else local. To sit there and take the abuse in hopes of being one of the few that get the call is stupid. I don't think it needs to be said that the legacies and local US airlines suck when it comes to treatment of employees.

Flug -

Feel free to refute any of my incomprehensible posts with facts.
If you can't understand me - maybe you just don't speak Marine.
Also - are you really trying to say that being balanced is a bad thing?

USMCFLYR

I'm betting that the ratio of: Alaska applicants/Alasks hires is even more depressing than that.

You crack me up. You really do. :)

You just can't lay off the parsing and spinning of people's words.

My mistake
 

Rnav,

Horizon Air is where my career progression died. I was told by an Alaska Airlines captain that if I wanted to go to Alaska that I had better "fly for Horizon". I never wanted to work there but this was a sitting captain who was telling me this, so I did it. He didn't know any better. The last time he had to get an aviation job was in the 1970's.

Two days into ground school I was told that no one goes to Alaska Airlines from Horizon Air. Not the pilots, flight attendants, ground crew or gate agents. Alaska Airlines, as an unspoken policy, rarely hired anyone from Horizon Air.

To make matters worse if I left Horizon Air before the two year training contract was up or if I had a blemish of any kind on my record while at Horizon Air it would assure that I would never get hired by Alaska Airlines. Essentially I was stuck at the one place where I was virtually assured to never make it to my dream from and had to appear as though I was happy about it.

Lastly in the airline world Horizon Air is a tiny little regional out in the sticks. The company hates growth. Upgrade is very slow. Pilots were not leaving in droves to go to the majors. There were few bread crumbs to follow. Most careers ran out of steam there and died. Of those who did leave it was usually to pursue other aspirations outside of aviation since it becomes clear that Horizon Air is a career black hole where the gravitational pull is powerful to overcome.

Lesson 1: Don't work for Horizon Air if you wish to fly for Alaska Airlines.

Lesson 2: Don't take career advice from a senior airline captain. Their information is as fresh as the day they got hired years ago.

Skyhigh

Young success
 

The airlines love young success. If it takes you 12 years to upgrade you might as well get comfortable. The ideal is to upgrade by your mid to upper 20's and be the captain of a jet before 30.

We all start out with those aspirations. Aviation however is on a different schedule. Recessions, shutdowns and hiring trends ebb and tide like the seasons. Start your career when the tide is going out and your dreams might be dead before you even get started.

To someone in HR who looks at a resume with extended periods in the right seat somehow makes the applicant seem ineffective or even defective. (Applicant "A" is a 38 year old with 1000 hours of part 121 PIC while applicant "B" is 28.) Circumstances surrounding the pace of upgrade are largely out of the pilots control but it still looks bad. It leaves the evaluator wondering what is wrong with you.

In addition the added years to ones resume offers more opportunities for blemishes to show up. Perhaps you have gained weight or are experiencing some typical male pattern baldness. A wedding can reduce ones flexibility in their life choices. Maybe a health issue pops up or bust a check ride. A million little things can come along and tip the scales ever so slightly in the wrong direction as we get older.

Getting stuck at Horizon Air exposes one to many of these ills. Before you know it you are 40 and a new turbine captain. A competitive disadvantage over the 28 year old RJ PIC from a crummy east coast airline that is experiencing explosive growth.

Competition is fierce at the legacy airlines. Horizon Air is not the place to make the leap to the big time. I wish I had known that long ago.

Skyhigh

Amway
 

You hit the nail with that one !! Any double diamonds in here?

Skyhigh

I'm glad I do. :)
I enjoy the forums as you do.
I don't see any spin though.
Seems people are easy with the words when they don't provide any facts.
Remember the Washington State regarding $70k as below the poverty line bit?
And you call MY posts spin? :rolleyes:
Now that cracks me up.

USMCFLYR

You might know something about this.

I remember during my "commuter" job search days in the early-mid 90s, we were hearing a story about Horizon and its FOs. There was no internet of course back then and I didn't know anyone at Horizon so it was hard to verify.

Did they have a situation where they found out that a number of their new FOs with families were applying for, and receiving, food stamps?
The story went that as soon as the company caught wind of it, they bumped up their annual salary by a couple of hundred bucks or so which put them over the gov't support threshold.
That was just so awful it stuck with me.

Skywest
 

I think it was Skywest. The memo told their pilots not to stand in line for food stamps while in uniform. No pay raise. When I was at Horizon Air my take home pay was $492 every two weeks. I made more mowing lawns as a kid.

Most of the pilots I have worked with are experts at seeking government assistance. They know how to get food stamps, the best way to approach unemployment insurance and how to squeeze the most out of the Work Force Investment Act.

When that story first began to circulate it did not seem all that unusual.

Skyhigh

Excused
 

I believe that most who venture into aviation today are from middle to upper middle class suburban families. They go to state colleges and plan for a civilian career. It is natural for them to wish to live as adults in a manner that is similar to their own upbringing. A few brief years of sacrifice after college is acceptable but a decade or more is not. Most of us have the same life schedule to follow; college, career, marriage/spouse home family. Increasingly aviation is making it difficult to achieve the personal life accomplishments that are essential for most to feel as though they are fulfilling their overall life goals.

In the current climate most who reach their second year in a regional begin to painfully understand that the situation that they have gotten themselves into most likely will lead to a worse standard of living than what their parents had and that perhaps supporting and maintaining a family will be quite difficult. The possible salvation of making it to a good legacy airline is the goal but for most I believe that it becomes easy to see early on that those seats are not available for most and even then it seems like more of the same. The line between the legacy airlines and regional airlines is getting blurry as the two career paths come closer together with each downturn.

I write to the pilots who are starting out today. Who hold the same values, concerns and needs as I. Who dream of starting a family, owning a home and of being there to enjoy it. I believe that in the past those things were more easily acquired while working as an airline pilot. I wish we had APC when I was in college. People need to know what they really are getting into and they need to be able to get into the mindset of someone who is perhaps 20 years their senior so that they can better anticipate what their needs will be by then.

I understand that many who read my comments here are much older than 25. Perhaps they even already hold good positions at a legacy airline. That is great. No one here especially me wishes to tarnish your accomplishments. However I also do not think you are in a position to understand what the pilots who are starting out today have to go through. What their odds are of making it to your place of control, compensation and satisfaction are. What you have is enviable indeed but also the sirens song that leads a generation into peril. My intent is to be a voice against the unintended seduction of those who are at the upper tiers of the profession and perhaps do not realize that the rope has been pulled up behind them. I am sorry if what I write offends you however it is not meant for your audience.

My aim is to let others who share a similar experience as I did and who hold the same wants and needs as I had when I was in their shoes know that there are alternatives. I am sure that many have silently come to the same conclusions and could use some external validation to the sinking feeling that begins a few years into their first regional airline. So I suggest to those who are from different paths and perspectives in this industry that my message is not intended for you nor are you in a position to benefit. As such you are excused from the conversation.

Skyhigh

See Sky - I knew you could do it! :D
An excellent post with good advice without a single insult, put down, or belittlement!
A good message delivered in a good manner.
Many would be well advised to listen, and take to heart, this post.
Risk/benefit analysis.
Apply it to everything that you do.

USMCFLYR

Thanks
 

USMCFLYR,

Thanks buddy !! I want you to be happy. :)

Skyhigh

And I just want the real message to get out there without undue drama ;)

USMCFLYR

Nightmare
 

This time of year as the morning sun comes earlier in the day I have more dreams. I have one dream in particular that keeps visiting me. In the dream I receive a certified letter from my former employer Horizon Air. The letter details how it is the position of Horizon Air that I owe them six more months on my training contract. In draft notice style it goes on to list a "report by date" medical inspection and training cycle. I usually awake during the part where I am mournfully packing and making ready to depart. The sensation is that of preparing to serve a term in prison. Sometimes I make it as far as ground school. Yuk :eek:

Skyhigh

Horizon is one thing, but how about this one? Would it now be a dream or a nightmare?

Dear Mr. High,

One of our clerks made a dreadful mistake ten years ago. Your application should have gone into the 'hire' pile. Please report for class at once.

Sincerely,
Nanook P. Bear
Employment Manager
Alaska Airlines
:)

A bit of comic relief! I'm sure even sky will chuckle at that. Thanks tom!!

It depends
 

Oh I have that recurring dream too and it is a sweet one. :)

The reality however is more complicated. Even a dream job like Alaska Airlines comes with continuing sacrifice. Survivable for a single guy. Much harder for a family man with small kids at home for a lot of reasons.

If the call came tomorrow I would have to go but it would not be without reservations. The dream however is perfection.

Skyhigh

PTSD.

I know a good doctor if you're interested.

Thanks
 

Thanks.

Skyhigh

I had a dream to be an international test cricket player for USA. Oh well...

I had a dream that Pilot's were paid millions of dollars a year to safely transport loved one's throughout this great country. I had a dream that moral character and truth were at the forefront of our daily lives and that all the scum bags that exist among us were exposed for who they really are. I had a dream that this nation would return to the fundamentals of the US Constitution and blah, blah, blah. Sometimes, it's good to dream.

Ah-Hah! We knew you would, just like any other pilot. We always have reservations, but decisions must be made anyway, or our reservations become our destiny.