merit based upgrades???
 

virgin america says that upgrades are merit based. has anyone ever heard of this before and what does it actually mean?

Upgrade
 

I guess it means that promotions will be based on effort, skill and determination. What a concept !!

SkyHigh

Or @ss kissing...no thanks, I'll take the seniority system any day of the week.

It sounds like it means if you fly broken airplanes, break FARs, and do whatever management wants you to then you can be a Captain. Follow the laws and rules, you get to stay an F/O

The Biggest bottle of scotch wins. Absolutely corrupt. Stay away.

I think Omni Air has this type of system.

Unless they intend to have an evaluator/standards guy monitor every flight, how are they going to get a fair evaluation of each pilot's flying skills, and decision-making abilities? Is how well they do on the annual check ride in the simulator environment going to determine who is going to be promoted? No thanks- I've seen way too many guys that were superb on the line in the real world, have lousy check rides in the sim.

I,m sure that FlyingA320 would know, but I think he's working for Skybus now.:rolleyes:
fbh

where and who told you this about VA? Merit based? How are they going to determine merit?

It will create more problems than it will cure.

It means that once you are a top paid captain and call in sick they can demote you to fo to save $

"Merit Based" is a euphemism for "screwing your way to the top." This is usually done in corporations, and I've seen it at work many, many times. I'll take the good old seniority system any day, at least for the major role that we as airline pilots play, that of line flying. For guys in the school house or for flight managers, I've no problem at all with merit based promotions. At least for the most part.

You said it! It sounds like a a way this new company can keep people in check. No trouble makers, no union talk etc etc, and you can make Captain real fast!!!


AAflyer

FWIW,

Avantair also has merit based upgrades. They require several letters of recommendation from captains and successful performance reviews, line checks, and training events to upgrade.

Bid system
 

I think we should have a point based bid system. Everyone is trained as a captain and has to bid for bases, schedules and captain lines. Seniority brings additional points but not as much as does now. It is not far that the few at the top of a traditional seniority system has everything while the bulk of the pilot group has little or nothing. The upper tier of a traditional system is easily corrupted by management to accept contracts that line their own pockets while junior pilots suffer. Pay rates could still advance overtime but the rest should be left to the bid system.

Under the current system a pilots career advancement, compensation and job satisfaction rest solely upon circumstance, company prosperity and luck.

SkyHigh

What it means is this: the biggest a$$ kissers are promoted. Stay away from this one.

Start up
 

Especially a start up should have something other than a traditional bid system. The difference between being a senior captain and junior FO could be as little as 6 months. Something better than "I got here first" should be in place.


It always seems that the first 200 pilots at any start up tend to be riff raff and industry rejects on the whole. Who else would recklessly jump into am unknown like that?


SKyHigh

Here's your chance fo fly again Skyhi
 

I totally disagree with the merit based system. Your solution sounds good on paper, but you won't think so when FOM (Friends of Mgt) suddenly get top ratings! It's like the military where most line IPs have more time than the wing king because you don't get promoted by doing your primary job!!! I've worked in non flying job post mil and prior to airlines and it was the same thing, FOM's got promotion and pay raises while those that did the work were passed by with a cost of living raise.

maybe synical but often true.

APC has it on the airline profile page

merit is in the eye of the beholder. a friend of mine went in to recommend someone and the chief pilot pulled up his sick calls. (that's the first thing he does whenever someone goes to talk to him) he had 6 in 8 years (less than 1 a year) and was told that he wasn't a dependable employee so he wasn't going to take the recommendation. I guess he wouldn't upgrade if it was merit based.

I don't think flying skills and decision making abilities will have much to do with "merit". It will be interesting to see how it works out.

Seniority based benefits have some 'merit'. Theoretically, a 20 year employee has contributed more to the success of the company than a 10 year employee so should receive the results of the success sooner (or greater). Also, the track record of the 20 year employee is more defined/established so it is more predictable that he/she would continue to be productive to the company. Further, the body of knowledge about the company and its operation is greater with the 20 year employee so that is more of an asset to the company and deserves more compensation. And since compensation includes more than dollars, it makes sense that the senior employee be more compensated in terms of vacation/schedule/perks also.

Seniority system is the way to go. When an individual's time comes to upgrade, either he/she makes it or is kept in the right seat for an additional period of time.

Most importantly it reduces much of the Office politics and backstabbing which has no place in a safe cockpit environment.

I agree. I think AA has an up or out policy as well. I kinda like that idea too, but don't know all the particulars.

We??? As in, at your desk job??? I don't get it. You quit, your vote does not count.

How is it going over at VX?

Since this discussion is about their merit upgrades I assume you must be a Virgin management guy. Otherwise you've got no right to say who's vote counts and who's doesen't.

Amen to that. In addition, just because someone has the seniority for a position, it's not automatically granted. There's a little task called training and passing check rides involved.

Horrible idea - not enough is known such as:
1) How is "merit" defined
2) Who determines "merit"

Anything goals that a flight crew could have other than the safe completion of a flight (like performing in a way to accomplish "merit", however defined) is counter productive. Also - depending upon how "merit" is defined, how many people in the HR dept are going to be required for this measurement? Too many questions, bad idea. The seniority system is set up to completely eliminate the A$$ kissing to get ahead found in corporations not involved with flying. Mostly, in the corporate world, it works - the weak sisters do not advance. It does not ALWAYS work though, and some percentage of A-kissers and relatives, etc will advance not on merit, but on external factors. This would be unexceptable - seniority and ability to upgrade and pass check rides should be the rule. I am not against canning someone who fails to upgrade though. When my Grandpa flew for TWA everyone took a Captain checkride after 5 years (this is in the 50's). If you busted it, you were gone. That didn't mean you could hold Captain at that point, but it did weed out those who wouldn't be able to upgrade.

Sidelined
 

I am merely between jobs. I have 20 to 25 years of airline eligibility left. :p


Besided I didn't quit. My company folded.


SKyHigh

And your date of hire does? You don't get to be President of the US by being the oldest citizen.

In our current situation, that doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

So after all the d-sucking, far-violating, management a$$-kissing, you get your merit raise and have the pleasure of starting over at 1st year pay? Sounds great, sign me up...NOT!!

In the long run, senority upgrades work better for the company, pilot and relieve managment of trying to qualify non technical skills for a technical position. Once again, they are trying out the old mistakes.

I'd like to see merit incorporated a little more into the current system. Currently a less than average CA can get an upgrade before you because he was hired a year earlier. Every other notable profession is based on merit...plus it will make pilots strive to be the best. I agree with most of what has been said but I'd to see a little more merit integrated with seniority. And as far as I'm concerned...being at a company longer is not merit...its seniority.

The merit is...........you got your ratings and met the minimum qualifications and you passed all the HR and hiring BS and got the Job. Remember, most Real Airlines Hire future Capts not future FO's.

The 2nd merit is ..........you passed your FO training and checkride and IOE in other words you didn't kill anyone along the way.

The 3rd merit is you continued to fly safely for a few years and have an equal number of Take-offs and landings. ATTA boy!

The 4th merit is You now have the seniority to hold a Capt position. As a very seasoned Airline Capt previously said (Fireman), you still must pass the Class 1 Medical and you must pass the FAA oral and the FAA Type Ride. In other words everyone must meet a Minimum standard. And you must continue to do so every 6 months. That is merit enough in my book.

Under the seniority system you don't have to worry about the Chief Pilot's Son or Daughter.........or the CEO's ....... ahem......"Niece" getting that CAPT slot before you........

Merit based upgrades equate to flying with the guy who you jumped over by being a but kisser.

Thank you, but I'd rather wait for my number to come up, than have to fly with FO's that I'd stabbed in the back. Flying with a ****ed off FO isn't the best plan for career longevity. Besides, I'm FO dependant. I need all the help I can get. :-)

Skyhigh, you can say "we" when you get back in. I hear that numerous airlines are having serious trouble even filling interview sessions. Jump in, the waters warm.

"a little bit of merit
 

Old VW, a little merit in this profession is like being a little bit pregnant, once you open that door the thing keeps growing and growing until it has a life of its own.;)

I'm not saying a completely bias system only on merit. But maybe some incentive for on time performance or passenger satisfaction surveys, etc. That is something you can't kiss your way around. Now again it would have to be looked after to avoid problems with rampers, bad wx effecting passenger opinions, atc delays, etc. I would just like to bring up the discussion...to see what, if anything, pilots could receive merit for. And think of merit as something a pilot does to go above and beyond the standard. Obviously passing a 1st class medical is a staggering achievement :/ but i'm thinking more about things people do extremely well above the standard. They're may not be room in for aviation but i'm just trying to entertain the idea.

Do you really want some pilot "cutting corners" just to make his incentive award? :( Sadly, there will be those who will think right along those lines.

Bad idea.

My first thought about your post is that I'm wondering who would be in charge of determining these "merit events"? Then, I'm wondering whose responsible for rating each pilots' meritorious performance. It would become, in short order, a bucket of muckets. I do however understand your concern that every pilot should strive to be the best that he/she can be. However, that really will never happen, given the fact that some really love the job, the flying, the lifestyle, and everything that goes along with it, while others of our profession are here to earn a living and get a lot of time off, nothing more. You see it on every flight, every day. You have those guys that always leave their cockpit a sh!thouse, and you have those guys that leave it spotless. You have guys who really take pride in their flying, while others could care less, as long as they get every other landing. You have guys who strive to continue to learn their jet, and you have guys who only pull out their manuals for checkrides and simulators. The list goes on and on. Whereas I strive to be as professional as I can be, with a haircut, shined shoes, a uniform that fits and is not 3 sizes too large or small , I also understand that some of us are less concerned with things such as appearance. Truth be told, I'd rather have a very competent guy at the controls, than a guy whose only just barely competent. However, both are recognized as having met the standards, and that should be just fine.

Perhaps the best gage of a pilots performance can be seen on his or her last day, when he goes in to say goodbye to the chief pilot, and the chief pilot says "who the hell are you.":D