DAL and NWA to start flying RJ's
10-11-2005, 04:41 PM
#32
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Tomcat
Thanks Tomcat,
Well done. It has been a long and difficult road for all of us. There are no easy answers. We are all out here trying to make our dreams come true. Hopefully there will be a place for each of us.
SkyHigh
Well done. It has been a long and difficult road for all of us. There are no easy answers. We are all out here trying to make our dreams come true. Hopefully there will be a place for each of us.
SkyHigh
10-11-2005, 05:13 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: Lazy-boy Captain
Posts: 242
Frankly I am just here at AA because I really like the multi-engine turbine time.
Plus on some longer legs we actually get a meal!
And sometimes its even hot!
Attn all new-bees. Listen wisely to some of these "seasoned"
veterans. They have been through SEVERAL airlines and probably just as many wives.
Flying for fun is just that.
Flying for a career is just that also
Fly the plane......... Get good pay for it.
I tell new flyers this:
When you are just starting you would do ANYTHING to get some good flight time.
When you have made it to a major you would do ANYTHING to stay home.
This I find to be true to most airline pilots.
Plus on some longer legs we actually get a meal!
And sometimes its even hot!
Attn all new-bees. Listen wisely to some of these "seasoned"
veterans. They have been through SEVERAL airlines and probably just as many wives.
Flying for fun is just that.
Flying for a career is just that also
Fly the plane......... Get good pay for it.
I tell new flyers this:
When you are just starting you would do ANYTHING to get some good flight time.
When you have made it to a major you would do ANYTHING to stay home.
This I find to be true to most airline pilots.
10-11-2005, 07:23 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Office Chair
Posts: 629
Why do you insist on blaming the "newbies" to the industry on the problems we have inherited from your generation? Let's not forget that when the first "regional" jets were being developed, they were first marketed to the majors. The reason these jets are being flown by regionals as connections and code shares for the majors is because of the scope clauses in the contracts you voted into place. Just imagine what the face of the industry may look like now if pilots at the majors had agreed trade in their aging and gas-guzzling MD-80s and DC-9s for the "baby" jets. Maybe the airline industry would be blowing up on the top rather than in the middle. Perhaps one of the reasons there is such a glut of pilots out there now is because they saw the $300,000-a-year captains out there 5-10 years ago (which, of course, is for all the wrong reasons). Have contracts like that really helped the majority of the pilot group, or just a tiny minority that have since retired? By the way, how sustainable were those contracts really...in any market conditions? And those of you that want to blame 9/11 for all of our problems are kidding yourselves. You can't fault a pilot, regardless of age or experience, for wanting to get paid to fly. The generation of pilots breaking into the the industry in the past few years will probably work harder to get to the apex of their career than some of you ever did. In most cases, we are only trying to make the best of a difficult situation that was passed down to us by certain myopic or selfish pilots of another generation. Would you rather fly an RJ, or collect unemployment?
10-11-2005, 11:23 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: Lazy-boy Captain
Posts: 242
Thats our point
When you New-bees talk about wanting to fly for money we understand.
But get this straight when you sell your sole to get that 100 hr a month
Regional Jet job you better get used to it.
Because my friend you have just " made it" to the pinnacle of your flying career. You made it alright and except for a seat change you better plan on
getting used to the view. I estimate 10 years there (probably more)
I see these young wippersnappers so excited about their relative ease getting
into regional jet flying.
Jeez just last week I was flying the patern in a 152 WOW look at me today!
Ladies and gentlemen With the Airlines in such poor health it will take
DECADES to get the hiring train moving (SWA notwithstanding)
In the mean time the youngins have sold their future down tthe drain
to the lowest bidder.
And that is where you will stay for many many years.
With that career bomb crater going off...........yes
you better be in it for "the love of flying"
because the money won't be!
Time for bed, good night
But get this straight when you sell your sole to get that 100 hr a month
Regional Jet job you better get used to it.
Because my friend you have just " made it" to the pinnacle of your flying career. You made it alright and except for a seat change you better plan on
getting used to the view. I estimate 10 years there (probably more)
I see these young wippersnappers so excited about their relative ease getting
into regional jet flying.
Jeez just last week I was flying the patern in a 152 WOW look at me today!
Ladies and gentlemen With the Airlines in such poor health it will take
DECADES to get the hiring train moving (SWA notwithstanding)
In the mean time the youngins have sold their future down tthe drain
to the lowest bidder.
And that is where you will stay for many many years.
With that career bomb crater going off...........yes
you better be in it for "the love of flying"
because the money won't be!
Time for bed, good night
10-12-2005, 04:43 AM
#36
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Flyboymatthew
Dear Flyboy,
I doubt that you guys will work harder than previous generations. I hear that new hire times are down to 600 hours at the regionals. Just a few short years ago the average time for a new hire was around 4000 hours and some turbine time. Back in the early 90's you had to be a C5 Captain with 10 years experience to be considered at Horizon Air. Spending 6 months as a CFI then walking into your first CRJ is not a sacrifice. Try flying night cargo in a old broken small twin all by yourself for a few years, or living in the Alaskan bush and risking your life everyday to build time. Those kind of things are what my generation had to do. And we had to do it for a long, long time.
If we could cut the production of new pilots things would begin to improve in short order.
SkyHigh
I doubt that you guys will work harder than previous generations. I hear that new hire times are down to 600 hours at the regionals. Just a few short years ago the average time for a new hire was around 4000 hours and some turbine time. Back in the early 90's you had to be a C5 Captain with 10 years experience to be considered at Horizon Air. Spending 6 months as a CFI then walking into your first CRJ is not a sacrifice. Try flying night cargo in a old broken small twin all by yourself for a few years, or living in the Alaskan bush and risking your life everyday to build time. Those kind of things are what my generation had to do. And we had to do it for a long, long time.
If we could cut the production of new pilots things would begin to improve in short order.
SkyHigh
10-12-2005, 08:03 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: 320B
Posts: 511
FLYBOYMATTHEW,
first of all, I don't know who took a leak in your wheaties, but go back and read my post again, then get a fresh bowl of cereal.... now throttle back about ten percent and chill. You're still in that us versus them mode. Nearly every pilot at Delta over 50 is gone (perhaps around 100+ remain). Do you think that was because everyone of them was making $750,000 a year and thought they deserved more, so they just left. They left a job they loved because they were trying to protect their retirements and their family. You are buying into the trash that the media wants the average American to believe (And God help me, I hope you are not an average American and flying passengers around). The truth is that these guys left a company they loved because a management team with MBA's from Harvard completely blew it. Delta had the best balance sheet of any company in 2000, now we're at the bottom of the barrel. You have the audacity to infer that this was caused by the pilots. Get your facts straight FLYBOY. The buying power of a major airline pilot has decreased significantly since the 60-70's.
Here's a dirty little secret that Delta does not want anbody to know. Our mainline CASM is around 10-11 cents. The CASM for our RJ50's is over 20 cents. It's a little gas hog, flying around with a 80% load factor if there is any weather, the temp is too hot or the moon is in the wrong phase. The pilots could fly for free and it would still lose money. Meanwhile, we're told that Delta has too fly its a/c with a 92% load factor to break even....... We bought RJ's like a bunch of drunk sailors to break the back of the pilot group, what it's wound up doing is breaking the back of the company. Now we're talking about parking RJ50's in the desert or selling them overseas. The future is in the 90-100 seat a/c which will have a lower CASM and can actually do the job it will be purchased to do. The pilot group may have the opportunity of flying this machine. $88 for a 6 year Captain, $44 for a 6 year F/O.
Now.... Do I make too much money? I guess that depends on who you ask. I fly the MD90, a 150 seat a/c as an F/O. Delta wouldn't even talk to a pilot without years of PIC experience in either the military, regionals or corporate flying. No college degree!!!! Don't waste your time submitting an application. I will say that the Pilot group at Delta is among one of the most talented group of people I've been around. I'm sure that the pilots on the forum from American, Northwest, Fedex, CAL, etc. will tell you the same thing. I will make $84,000 this year before the next pay cut of 19.5% then I'll be at around $67,600. Is that too much to fly 150 people around? You tell me FLYBOY.... would you do the same job for say.... $23,000 a year? $40,000?, $50,000? What's your number? How much do you expect to make when you're in your mid forties? I do know this. When I came here from Raytheon in 2000, I was making in the $60's with a good schedule, retirement, med, dental, 401k, etc. So I view my career as going backwards. How do I blame? I blame myself..... I'm my own A/C commander and I have made my own decisions....... I'm flying along at FL350 at night, one engine is surging, I have a wall of red being reflected on my radar and I'm in moderate turbulence...... I believe it's time to divert and choose another course of action. Have you been there yet FLYBOY? If you haven't, you will... come talk to me then and I promise that instead of throwing rocks at you, I'll step back from the situation and calmly give you my analysis of what action needs to be taken (If you ask). You know why..... Because I'm a professional pilot, educated, experienced, analytical, and insightful. I support my fellow pilots, whether they are just thinking about learning how to fly, they are sitting next to me in the cockpit, chatting on a forum, or if I'm standing beside their grave and paying them last respects. I support you FLYBOY, I want you to have a great career and make an honest living. I want to sit next to you on the flightdeck. We're all in this together...... Hey FLYBOY, this aircraft is falling apart, let's do a little CRM, put our differences aside, get it on the ground and get our passenger safely home. Respectfully, Tomcat
first of all, I don't know who took a leak in your wheaties, but go back and read my post again, then get a fresh bowl of cereal.... now throttle back about ten percent and chill. You're still in that us versus them mode. Nearly every pilot at Delta over 50 is gone (perhaps around 100+ remain). Do you think that was because everyone of them was making $750,000 a year and thought they deserved more, so they just left. They left a job they loved because they were trying to protect their retirements and their family. You are buying into the trash that the media wants the average American to believe (And God help me, I hope you are not an average American and flying passengers around). The truth is that these guys left a company they loved because a management team with MBA's from Harvard completely blew it. Delta had the best balance sheet of any company in 2000, now we're at the bottom of the barrel. You have the audacity to infer that this was caused by the pilots. Get your facts straight FLYBOY. The buying power of a major airline pilot has decreased significantly since the 60-70's.
Here's a dirty little secret that Delta does not want anbody to know. Our mainline CASM is around 10-11 cents. The CASM for our RJ50's is over 20 cents. It's a little gas hog, flying around with a 80% load factor if there is any weather, the temp is too hot or the moon is in the wrong phase. The pilots could fly for free and it would still lose money. Meanwhile, we're told that Delta has too fly its a/c with a 92% load factor to break even....... We bought RJ's like a bunch of drunk sailors to break the back of the pilot group, what it's wound up doing is breaking the back of the company. Now we're talking about parking RJ50's in the desert or selling them overseas. The future is in the 90-100 seat a/c which will have a lower CASM and can actually do the job it will be purchased to do. The pilot group may have the opportunity of flying this machine. $88 for a 6 year Captain, $44 for a 6 year F/O.
Now.... Do I make too much money? I guess that depends on who you ask. I fly the MD90, a 150 seat a/c as an F/O. Delta wouldn't even talk to a pilot without years of PIC experience in either the military, regionals or corporate flying. No college degree!!!! Don't waste your time submitting an application. I will say that the Pilot group at Delta is among one of the most talented group of people I've been around. I'm sure that the pilots on the forum from American, Northwest, Fedex, CAL, etc. will tell you the same thing. I will make $84,000 this year before the next pay cut of 19.5% then I'll be at around $67,600. Is that too much to fly 150 people around? You tell me FLYBOY.... would you do the same job for say.... $23,000 a year? $40,000?, $50,000? What's your number? How much do you expect to make when you're in your mid forties? I do know this. When I came here from Raytheon in 2000, I was making in the $60's with a good schedule, retirement, med, dental, 401k, etc. So I view my career as going backwards. How do I blame? I blame myself..... I'm my own A/C commander and I have made my own decisions....... I'm flying along at FL350 at night, one engine is surging, I have a wall of red being reflected on my radar and I'm in moderate turbulence...... I believe it's time to divert and choose another course of action. Have you been there yet FLYBOY? If you haven't, you will... come talk to me then and I promise that instead of throwing rocks at you, I'll step back from the situation and calmly give you my analysis of what action needs to be taken (If you ask). You know why..... Because I'm a professional pilot, educated, experienced, analytical, and insightful. I support my fellow pilots, whether they are just thinking about learning how to fly, they are sitting next to me in the cockpit, chatting on a forum, or if I'm standing beside their grave and paying them last respects. I support you FLYBOY, I want you to have a great career and make an honest living. I want to sit next to you on the flightdeck. We're all in this together...... Hey FLYBOY, this aircraft is falling apart, let's do a little CRM, put our differences aside, get it on the ground and get our passenger safely home. Respectfully, Tomcat
Last edited by Tomcat; 10-12-2005 at 08:31 AM.
10-12-2005, 08:57 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Office Chair
Posts: 629
Look, the goal of my previous post was not to offend or make accusations, but to give some perspective to those of you that are long since removed from your first 121 gig. Those of us starting out now did not have any say in the matter of who will be flying RJs and for what price. Many of you at some point have probably refused to fly an RJ. Would the noble thing for us newbies to do be to refuse to fly them as well? The dilemma that we face is that if we don't take the job, there will always be someone else that will. Hell, there will even be someone out there who will be willing to pay for their own training to fly them. As a matter of fact, it's happening all the time right now.
So my question is, can you fault the guy just getting into the industry or the guy who dreams of one day flying for a living? Should we turn down a job flying a jet because we only have thousand hours and aren't "worthy"? What options do we have? If roles where reversed, what would you do? I most certainly make less money than any 121 pilot on this loop to fly turboprops, does this mean I am ruining the industry as well? I feel that I need to gain experience before I am in a position to push for changes. Would I support my fellow pilots if we voted tomorrow to strike for better working conditions and pay? Absolutely, I would be at the front of the picket line...job be damned. Would I vote for a pay cut if my airline wanted to get RJs? Hell no! I am not pretending that everything is A-OK with the industry, but I also don't feel I am personally responsible for this quandry. So educate me...what can us newbies do to make a change? I am more than happy to get your input.
So my question is, can you fault the guy just getting into the industry or the guy who dreams of one day flying for a living? Should we turn down a job flying a jet because we only have thousand hours and aren't "worthy"? What options do we have? If roles where reversed, what would you do? I most certainly make less money than any 121 pilot on this loop to fly turboprops, does this mean I am ruining the industry as well? I feel that I need to gain experience before I am in a position to push for changes. Would I support my fellow pilots if we voted tomorrow to strike for better working conditions and pay? Absolutely, I would be at the front of the picket line...job be damned. Would I vote for a pay cut if my airline wanted to get RJs? Hell no! I am not pretending that everything is A-OK with the industry, but I also don't feel I am personally responsible for this quandry. So educate me...what can us newbies do to make a change? I am more than happy to get your input.
