In many cases, they are one in the same.

The airline that lost $7 Billion or the airline that lost $12 Billion?

Obviously you are all missing what matters here. You go to the most “woke” airline. Money and jets don’t matter anymore.

Wow. Ohhhh wowwwwie, what a good one.

If you start within a few months of each other I’d pick whichever company has a domicile you’d be willing to live in. Once you pick one I’d stick with that company... both have similar pay/benefits... always lean towards QoL.

It's funny seeing all the Spirit and Frontier pilots (e.g., spirited, Excargodog) bash on the legacy carriers. They love to remind us all of the billion dollar losses and how long it will take for international and business travel to return.

They're like clockwork, those two. I wouldn't be surprised if they're the same person.

and legacy pilots try to **** on LCC pilots and remind them their airline is better. It’s all stupid nonsense, but it goes both directions

I’m sorry did I break your concentration from such an informative thread? Here’s your answer. Which airline offers you the soonest class date? Oh they both offered you the same date? Where do you live, or want to live? Anything beyond these two points is irrelevant in that seniority and driving or commuting the least distance will lead to the best career. Arguing over the last year or even 5 is minuscule when considering a 30+ year career somewhere.

Congrats to anyone that has a CJO at either, or both! I'd take the one that offers a better domicile for the needs/desires of you and your family. Contracts change, money comes and goes, but you never get time back so take the one that you don't have to commute to or you'll enjoy living at the most.

Delta lost 30x more money than Spirit.

Maybe they have a point. And job security

And you're a Frontier pilot, so you're proving my point.

and somehow I never missed a paycheck ...

Yep and now UAL, DAL, and soon AA will be hiring again.

It's strange how defensive the Spirit and Frontier guys get when this topic comes up. No one is saying that you can't have a worthwhile career at one of the ULCC's.

Right. Thanks to the the Gov't handing out utterly massive amounts of money. You better hope they are as generous next time something bad happens. Without the Gov't stepping in, half of the pilots would have been furloughed

So therefore my math is wrong?

Maybe, just maybe, the LCC business model is more resilient. It's not personal.

"Too Big to Fail" is a thing apparently.

Yes, resilient to a pandemic that had governments close their borders and businesses forced to close indefinitely. How could any airline survive when people are basically forced to stay inside their homes?

I just don't get why the LCC guys take it personally. Don't try and act like it's not. None of the legacy guys are saying you guys can't have a great career at Sprit or Frontier! What's annoying is the subtle jabs you guys give about how there are "dark times ahead but the ULCC's were built for these times"

Yeah, apparently. At least this time it was.

This thread is about helping people make a career choice. I feel like it's worth noting how much better the ULCCs fared. The Gov't bailed out the airlines this time, but there's no guarantee they will next time. Just something to consider for people making career choices.

Also, I feel like making the point again that to those who fear the Gov't is going to somehow put the airlines out of business for environmental reasons, you got to see and appreciate that the same govt provided multiple massive bailouts to the airlines.

This thread is basically about career advice.

Someone at a corporate gig or a regional should consider all options not just United or Delta.

If you are safely established on the seniority list at UAL/DAL that's great. But this thread is about making a choice if you aren't already there. It shouldn't just be a choice between United and Delta when there are ULCCs out there that are more resilient business models. The only problem with a career at one of them is you get looked down on by guys like you! (Just kidding)

title of thread is “Delta OR United”... don’t read into what career advice the OP is asking about.

Right. But tons of pilots read these forums looking for career advice and information. I'm just saying that there are other good career choices out there

You've already brought this thread down, so there is not much else to say. Again, no one is saying you can't have a good career at one of the ULCC's.

But let me say this to you again, but differently: If someone has a CJO from Spirit and Delta, which would you tell them to choose? Better yet, had this person been you, where would you go knowing what you know now?

A year ago I would have gone to Delta. Today, I'd go to Spirit. Honestly.

Covid changed things.

Go where ever makes you and your family the most comfortable and happy and who cares what anyone else thinks. Legacy, LCC, ULCC, regional, do what's best for you.

Welp that settles it. Time to trade in my legacy job for Spirit. I never wanted that profit sharing or to be a widebody captain anyways.

Past performance is no guarantee of future results.

And I didn't say someone should leave if they already have a seniority number.

Times change

I would also consider (besides bases, commutability, etc) how quickly you think you can move up in seniority. It’s great to be at a major, but it’s better to be out of the bottom 20% as quickly as possible. It’s not controllable by you of course, but it should be a factor when you have more than one offer.

I like that. Perhaps you read it on a fortune cookie and decided to use it.

Also, thank you for answering the OP’s question. If you have a CJO at Delta and United, go to Spirit.

Probably a little to do with legacy guys asking ULCC pilots “you got your app in?” when on the jumpseat

I don’t get it as much as a CA but it’s especially numerous when a grey hair at a Legacy asks me if I’m trying to leave my line holding in base CA seat for a legacy.

They aren’t trying to be condescending, so I just laugh and say “im good”

(And maybe sneak into the conversation how nice it is to have all holidays and weekends off). Haha

I’m a fan of Spirit, their business model and where they are going in the future....but that statement is a little ridiculous. Delta five years from now will be leading the pack probably with a new contract and back to providing profit sharing.

maybe. Maybe not

I don't read fortune cookies, I read financial statements.

I sincerely hope so. I hope every airline is back to being highly profitable asap. We all benefit from each other (as far as labor contracts go)

But the big boys have some deep holes to dig out of. We should all be extremely grateful that the Gov't came in and saved our asses. If they hadn't probably 30% of us would be on the streets

For me Spirit 100%, for them, see below. There is more to a choice than name alone.

I try to always tell people that their choice for a “lifer” career is way too personal for anyone to give the perfect answer. Ask questions about business models, financials, respected opinions on the state of the airlines etc and then take that with the other factors like qol, contract, seniority advancement to come up with the best answer for you.

There are things about Spirit that are so good for my situation that I would pass up offers from other majors. Does that mean they are the right fit for someone else, hell no.

Lets not make this a “my street is better than your street” argument, it is far to complicated for such a simplistic approach.

Seriously? You are butthurt over THIS posting?


I didn’t thing the idea that United has more international exposure or that Delta prioritized business travelers was really all that controversial. Far less that it would actually offend someone and start them spinning fantasies.

This plus one. But that’s me.

Always go where you feel makes you happiest. You’ll make a **** ton of money if everything works out at UAL / DAL. You’ll make a **** ton of money at (U)LCCs. If the paint on the side of the plane still matters to you then I can’t help you with that. You will grow out of that over time and realize a plane is plane. All that matters; QOL. Paycheck. QOL.

This being said the OP asked UAL vs DAL. Not vs another airline. So in closing my two pennies; it’s a severe gamble. They are both bleeding enormous amounts of money and are not too big to fail (all airlines got loans who wanted them). I have zero doubt to be honest that both will be fine but in what form or shape is hard to predict in this environment.

Both are great companies to work for.

Best of luck and congrats !

Define **** ton. What I do know is I have to work a decent amount of premium to make what my legacy counterparts make on guarantee at the same longevity on the same jet. That’s not including what they can make in profit sharing or on a wide body. Then I can’t even touch it. FedEx guys now that’s making money.

And just like 20 years ago when $100k seemed like a lot it was really just a nice living. That’s about what $250k is now. A nice living. It doesn’t even pay the yearly property taxes on the houses less than two miles away from my dump. And those are second homes even. Those people are making a true **** ton and there are a lot of them. This is peanut compared to the big boys.

Do you understand the difference between a cash loss and equity write off? As in, they didnt really lose 12B out of their bank account. A lot of it was a "paper loss". Delta played accounting games and lumped asset depreciation for years to come into last year, among other things (Early retirement payouts, investing in their pension so they'll be self funded, JV equity writeoffs). If you are going to take a loss, take them all at once approach. This sets up future years for no tax liability, and manages the stock price volatility for future quarters. They wrote off the value of 56 767s and 91 717s to the tune of several billion, but they'll still be flying most of them til 2025. Still today taking most new aircraft in cash. Most of their debt will mature in short term.

They reduced a lot of future cost headwinds.
I foresee them quickly getting cashflow positive, paying down debt to 2019 levels (10B), and making billions a year in profits. May take a few years.

$250k might be just a nice living to you, but to the average individual median income of about $40k*, that's rich! Of course that $250k really depends where in the country you live. In parts of Cali, if you're LAX based, it isn't much. Commute in from somewhere and that $250k might get you a big baller house with a ton of disposable income. I never expected to get rich from flying, I do it because there isn't another career I'd rather do. There's other professions that will get a ton of nice toys and homes, but I don't know if I'd enjoy doing them.




*
State of Working America Wages 2019: A story of slow, uneven, and unequal wage growth over the last 40 years | Economic Policy Institute (epi.org)

All I really care about when it comes to a career is how much money I can make. I don't care about anything else. Sometimes I feel like a loser for choosing to be an airline pilot early on in my life. At least we earn decent wages that we can invest and turn into income producing assets.