How do the two airlines compare as it relates to schedule manipulation? Much ability at either to trade or drop? I’m sure it depends on a lot of factors, but let’s just say an average month, A320 out of LAX for both airlines.


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You can drop your entire schedule at American. You have to know how to manipulate the system.

Definitely Grizzly, Polar $uck$

Hahaha, well done. I didn’t catch that until reading your post.

I think we can all agree that pandas are just a waste of space.

You're bad and you should feel bad.

Do they still have chunks of real panda at the Express?

Just the ears, deep fried nice and crispy. The rest of the panda they market as a product called “tofu”.

Been with AA 34 years and always lived in base. Don't even want to think about how many hours and days I would have wasted had I been a commuter. If you don't want to move, go with the airline that has a base where you live!

Wife and I sat down, did the math. To have the same TAFH (time away from home), just doing commutable trips, with an easy 2 hour commute, rig @ 3rd year pay, NK, it was $30k/yr. That's before the cost of lost premium opportunity, lost commute, blood pressure meds. In our case we decided it was worth it, but definitely, make sure it's worth it for you.

Sorry to derail this question but I don’t want to start another post and be annoying.

What about United and Delta, where would y’all go?

CJOs at both, live in a city where both have bases. Have researched the contract comparison of both and they are both pretty similar except for profit sharing.. cannot figure out how to make the appropriate informed decision. Any guidance?

I think Delta’s reserve system especially if you live in base is better. The concept of global reserve at UAL would cause heads to explode at Delta. That can of course change in the next contract. Probably better advancement at UAL.
The overtime provisions at Delta can make you wealthy if you live in base. The reserve system drives many trips to double pay. Crediting well over 100 hours a month is not difficult in many categories. I have no idea how that works at UAL. Short term seniority will get a rapid boost over the next 18 months as Delta deferred hiring and is playing catch-up.

Delta and UAL bases? So that’s lax or jfk? Big junior bases both. I’d pick on the reserve system that will let you stay home for pay best

How old are you? How many people younger than you have been hired at DAL/UAL that you’ll never be senior to?

Since you’re willing to live in a domicile for either, and thus drive to work (the most important thing by far)... I’d look at where you are in each company’s hiring wave.

Delta has hired 5k or so since 2013-2014. Not sure how many United has hired.

Ultimately, wherever you end up will be great, APC wang-measuring aside. Every place has a ton of pros and a few cons. Everything is cyclical.

That’s tough...but I think UAL has more retirements coming up and has hired less thus far. If I were in your shoes, I think I’d lean toward UAL.

Thanks a lot guys, very much appreciate the responses

Retirements will be a factor, but if you live in the most junior base for a company your options will be much better than your classmates who commute or live in a more senior domicile.

As an outsider with friends at both places, it sounds like people at AA are just short of miserable, except for pay. As far as business is concerned, AA is the closest to bankruptcy...again.

United vs Delta

As others have said, pay, most work rules, and lack of commute are about even between the two, these are the factors I can think of off the top of my head:

1. Profit sharing cannot be counted on, but there’s no denying the benefit of such large checks as of late.

2. CAL hired a lot of young guys that everyone keeps forgetting

3. Who has more wide bodies, if that’s your thing.

4. Both have announced large numbers of hiring in 2020, I’d see how those numbers affect the cushion below you (I’m too lazy to look up the actual projected hiring numbers)

5. Future. Who’s more innovative, who’s cutting back (::cough cough United Polaris Meals::)

This.

For debt? A large replacement aircraft order at DL/UAL would get them in the ballpark. Americans debt concerns me. We have gone through a huge spending spree though. New HQ/almost all new aircraft. I think we are ahead of the other carriers expenses coming up.


“American has more than $34 billion in debt, compared to United's $20 billion, Delta's $17.4 billion”

What would happen concerning the CBA if AA declared bankruptcy? Would the pilot group get a concessionary contract handed out by a judge?

Also AA has a steady stream of labor with the flow thru program, so theoretically speaking if they declared BK they would have no trouble filling new hire classes since a lot of those pilots at the WOs are counting on the flow with no other backup plan. So that equates to not a lot of leverage and a possible horrid BK contract. Does this sound like a probable scenario or am I way off base here?

Delta has spent cash on a lot and is extremely profitable, meaning they can continue to put money into aircraft and facilities without being buried under debt. United is in the same boat I believe. American, however, does not generate the same cash flow. They needed to capture the consumer before they bought a brand new fleet. American right now is like the MAX. Stuck in its old ways but putting lipstick on a pig and hoping they get by like that. The CEO needs replaced, but to change directions I think their entire upper management needs a bed direction. I work for a competitor but for the sake of all my friends at AA, I hope they turn things around before it’s too late.

Here's a great thread on how AA was killing it 4 years ago and a bunch of United pilots wishing they had AA's management team and profitability...

I know AA hadn't much intergrated AA/USAir yet and UAL did in fact get a major mgmt makeover but I think it shows how quick the top dog can go to the bottom and the bottom can rise to the top. All 3 legacies are making between Billions a year at the moment. I wouldn't waste too much time worrying about any legacies going bankrupt in the immediate future.

I'm thinking there may be something to what a lot of guys are saying about the legacies will continue to leap frog one another far into the future.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/u...thetic-we.html

Agreed. None of the big airlines are going anywhere anytime soon.

From the peanut gallery...

These posts, and the debates, are the most interesting and useful conversations on the forum. As someone hoping for a phone call, these conversations never get old. Thanks all for the varied perspectives.

Cast a wide net....go with the first job that makes you more competitive for the next opportunity. Someday you'll end with an airline job and it will no longer make sense to leave for another. At that point, help the pilots achieve the best pay and QOL possible, and enjoy the ride at your new favorite airline.

Just to fix a typo:

Delta does not have $17.4B debt, it is currently $10.1B. Also, $1.9B in cash. Cashflow has been about $8B a year.

AA got ahead of their aircraft replacement cycle, hence the debt. DL has 84 scheduled aircraft deliveries in 2019, much are paid in cash. With their strong cash flow, they will be able to continue taking new year over year aircraft without significantly raising their debt.

So I enjoy the discussion in the "which airline should I choose" threads, but I'm not sure I can read them anymore. Maybe I've missed it, but does the OP ever respond with where he/she chose to go? It's like watching the entire season of the Bachelor without seeing who got the final rose. I guess what I'm saying is, who got the final rose? American or Delta. I can't handle these cliffhangers.

P.S.
I know that no one will believe me now, but I don't watch the Bachelor.

Fear not, Westen! I have not started training yet, but barring any unforeseen circumstances, the final rose is going to American. I appreciate all of the great advice I have received on this thread, and I never expected so many responses. I especially appreciated the advice to consult my wife before making a decision! Who would have thought??!!

In the end, the opportunity to live near family, in domicile, less than 30 minutes from the airport, combined with the mandatory retirements at American, is too good of an opportunity to overlook.

But keep the back-and-forth coming so the next guy has even more to consider!

Welcome. It will be an amazing career progression.

Thank you averageathlete! I can sleep better now. Best of luck to you in your career!

Welcome aboard,
You have a projected retirement in the top 200 and hopefully you"ll be driving to work sooner rather than later.

Now you can get back to more important things...

congrats on the new job and the big decision . Several thousands would kill to be in your shoes .!!

Do you all think age plays a role in this kind of decision? I'm in a similar situation but mid 40's. I had someone suggest to me that given my age AA would be better than DAL due to much more rapid seniority = more options. I would live in domicile quick if I went to DAL.

Thanks for your thoughts!

If you can live in domicile quick, that is a game changer, QOL improvement that can't be underestimated, especially if you ONLY have 20 years.
Many of the quick seniority progression comparisons assume you will cash in on such progression by chasing captain upgrades on the biggest equipment, as soon as possible. Many times that may happen a few years earlier at one company but will come at huge QOL expense in having to commute to a nearly intolerable location.
Either way, if you live in domicile, you have way more opportunity to cash in on overtime and/or reserve at home if you upgrade asap. That will usually out weigh any commutable seniority progression.

Unless you’re planning to move to a American base.. you’ve answered your question right here.