Obviously increased CBA compensation is good for us. That would be my choice if it were up to me. Duh.

But while that might attract the interest of more noobs, there's not a big difference between $200K- 300K from the perspective of a teenager or college grad... anything in that range is pretty good. Problem is they still have to bridge the 1500 hour valley. A lot of time and money invested, with some uncertainty as to the ultimate outcome. There are a lot of people out there who don't have aviation friends or family, and thus have no idea how to go about it.

With an airline owned or sponsored training program, the airlines could get ab initio pilots to the regionals for about $150K each... so the cost of a junior legacy FO for one year.

Remember regionals are already throwing around cumulative bonuses in that range anyway (and mainline is ultimately footing the bill). If you do sponsored ab initio, the student is obligated to serve X number of years at your regional and/or mainline as payback.

The current regional bonuses are just fighting for qualified pilots. Ab initio would attract new pilots. Especially since they don't have to take a lot of responsibility on themselves, other than complete training.


But this is just discussion, the ship has already sailed and it would probably take the majors several years to get something like this set up. They might even have to get the mfgs to increase production of ASEL trainers to have enough capacity. They assumed the GA industry would step up on their own, and of course they could not. COVID-induced industry uncertainty probably spooked a few potential students as well (mu cousin's husband bailed on his flight training in early 2020).

$200k-$300k would be a good starting point at 1500hrs. We may never make what MDs make but that’s what I want it to be. High barriers to entry with effort, skill, and cost. Make it over the hump and your know you’ll make bank. Only the best make it out and no shortage of applicants.

Amen! We shouldn’t even need to have certificates!! That damn dirty government strikes again



Massive /s

Not their problem to solve.

The MDs I went to college with all had the med school loans paid for by their hospital/group if they agreed to stay for X years.

No one is paying back the pilots (except Uncle Sam) for the training.

Hospitals “pay” for it. Really we pay for it in services.

Lol, not even in the slightest.

Then be specific. Instead of less regulation, add some concrete, thoughtful solutions.

The anti regulation is a CEO’s wet dream, with Elon smiling down over the rest.

that crazy government and *checks notes* wanting AIRLINE pilots to have an AIRLINE transport pilot’s license.

Crazy

extreme /S

They make smart decisions when needed. Age 65 came about because ICAO raised their age to 65 and the FAA agreed it was safe for those pilots to fly in the US system. At that point it was game, set, match for the age to go up in the US. There was zero probability of winning in court to maintain age 60 against any of the discrimination lawsuits. Letting a judge rule would have been a disaster so ALPA did the best they could do by supporting legislation that mitigated age 65 to the maximum possible.
The current situation is quite different with ICAO remaining at 65. The FAA can at least go into the courtroom with a straight face and claim it’s a safety issue which is a allowed reason to discriminate on the basis of age. It would also be very difficult for many if not most airlines to schedule pilots between 65 and 67 to fly domestic only.

That's what I've been saying. Until ICAO raises it this is DOA. But not because of ALPA. To reiterate, if the winds of politics turn and blow against them, they will flip around like a windsock and claim reams of data supporting it.

It worked for decades just fine that way.

If a younger person asks me about becoming an airline pilot, I generally steer them clear of the career and advise to do other work. From lousy pay through years of "dues paying", a sensitive industry to economic conditions, and too much time away from loved ones, the career is just not worth it.

It may be a good fit for some, but I find the majority of young people I have spoken too would last in the industry. It's just not worth it even if you like flying.

Actually it did, because up until about the turn of the century (the rise of then RJs), you needed 1500-2500 hours to get an airline job anyway due to market forces.

But them the RJ's came and they started putting wet commercial noobs into regional jets, with CA's who were often on the very young side as well. The ATP rule was an adaption to the new paradigm.

Yes, there were a few points in time when the majors hired wet commercials in the very distant past, but they had flight engineers and airline safety was a quite different landscape 50-60 years ago. Not apples to oranges. Today we are in a hopefully sustainable era of exceptionally low fatal accident rates.

I wouldn't use a 1965 classic car as a daily driver with my kids either.

alpa is joke.

I was kinda thinking things will evolve to something similar. Legacy guarantees loan for flight training for an applicant. If the student stays in school to completion, instructs at their designated school to the minimum hour limit for regional hiring and then works their designated regional then the legacy makes the payments on the loan. If hired or flowed to the legacy then the loan is paid off by legacy. If the student departs this designated path, he’s on the hook to pay back the loan. All in, probably costs the legacies a lot less than the bonuses that are being paid out to regional pilots right now even if you factor that some students leave and default on the loan guaranteed by the legacy. It’s too late to fix the current vacuum at that level but would help down the line.

That’s the only answer.

I don’t see them protesting Aviate. Or Flows.
It’s not about just pay and QOL. It’s a vision of a stable career for those looking to join. The fact that airlines whipsaw and furlough so easily causes many to avoid this industry.

How many of these ATP holders are over 65 and how many have Corporate Jobs. We need these stats to prove/dis-prove the surplus of ATP’s data

1. How many are still alive? The FAA database doesn't track that. Did somebody research every single name? If not, they're voting the graveyard.
2. How many are over 65?
3. How many have medicals? You could actually pull that from the database.
4. How many have zero interest in airlines, either employed in other sectors or not flying at all?

If they have corporate jobs and aren’t leaving to be airline pilots it’s because the compensation isn’t high enough. It’s not a shortage.

Not true. Some like their bosses and don’t want to relocate and enjoy being at home and not being based in “Big Cities”. Not everyone will jump ship for an extra dollar (which debunks ALPA’s thoughts. If so they’d stay at the regionals and flow and collect their 150-200k bonuses

It IS true. Just about anyone will change what they’re doing if the conditions are right. Hit the right compensation, the right work rules, the right commuter policies, the right work culture, etc and changes will happen. What moves them will be different for each individual though so it may be harder to hit the right combination to have the best impact. But those numbers definitely DO matter.

I flew corporate, liked my boss, didn’t want to relocate, and enjoyed being at home and not being based in “Big Cities”. Yet here I am. My needs were met to make it worthwhile for me. Others that haven’t simply have different thresholds that haven’t been met yet.

Since this hasn't happened in any federally regulated industry for any length of time over the past 50 years (except the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act), I'd say this is a non-starter.

It ain't called "Leviathan" for nothing.

Not trying to be hostile. But appealing to government to "get out the way" is a fool's errand.

It's been awhile since I looked, but last I checked, in order to be considered an active ATP/Commercial, you had to hold a valid medical and under 65

Who tracks that? I guess the FAA has age and medical, and if you're dead your medical will expire in a year anyway. But DoB should not be publicly available to anyone other than the FAA.

But you can still have zero interest in airlines, rich guys who have an ATP and 1C/2C medical for insurance.

For practical purposes, you could assume that *most* such pilots over age 50 are not interested in airlines if they're not currently in the airlines.

I would be willing to bet there are a lot in category 4.

Just my educated guess.

please. The historical entry requirement was an ATP and several thousand hours, like around 4500 to get an RJ jet job. As management kept taking concessions from pilots over the decades, they had to hire less and less qualified applicants. By late 2006 they were hiring ink wet 250 hour commercials. That ended around mid 2012. After the 2008 recession there was little hiring for over two years. So, a small window of 2-4 years where minimums dipped to the lowest legal applicant coincidentally when pay and work rules dipped to their lowest too.
no, the ATP rule only restores a portion of the experience it used to take.

That is not even close to the truth. Mid 90s American Eagle (Envoy) had the highest mins at 1500/300. You could get a job at Comair/ASA and a host of others (PFT) with 1200/200. I believe Mesaba was the lowest non-PFT mins at 1000tt.

I remember all the flying magazines back in the 90s where advertising flight training 0-1500 hours at a fixed cost.

I seem to recall mid 90’s it was still pretty rough if you weren’t willing to pay to train in mostly turboprops. Took some 135 experience and several thousand hrs. It started loosening up late 90’s when everyone started getting a bunch of rj’s.

If you were willing to pay, it wasn’t hard to get in. I can think of about 15 instructors I worked with that paid their money to Continental Express in 96 and were hired at mins.

Yes they were TPs, but that’s all there was except for Air Whisky or whoever flew the handful of BAE 146s for United.

Yeah I remember those days. Continental Express washed a bunch of those low time pay to train pilots out though. I skipped the pay to train and went 135 captain in various turboprops. The problem became you just didn’t build time like 121 and with everyone now having 121 jet had to go to xjt anyhow to get competitive.

Bring all the rj’s under mainline contracts, pay close to jb 190 dl 220 rates and the captain a check airman with check airman override and I wouldn’t have a problem with that. That really should have happened years ago. That’s my opinion anyhow.

If all regional flying was brought in-house. Assuming they could still staff, would Mesa through Skywest give up? What would they become if not fee for departure? Just curious about unintended consequences from such a hypothetical. Could they create wage pressure by going big flying wide body at narrow body rates.

Wow what a typical management stooge response.

Who let the management troll in here?

It is extremely apparent you have no understanding of basic economics.

All the major airlines are in contract negotiations and due to the pilot shortage, pay will be going UP.

If you artificially stop retirements for 3 years and lower the requirements for entry thus increasing the pool of available new hires THE OBVIOUS EFFECT IS WAGES WILL STAGNATE OR GO LOWER.