SWA or DAL?
 

Maybe not a bad situation to be in but I'm new to the airlines after flying for the Navy the last 10 years and I have been hired by SWA starting in August. The kicker is I just received an intreview invitation from DAL and I am a little perplexed. Love both companies and will be shortly living in SLC (DAL domicile) which makes DAL very attractive but love the stability of SWA. Obviously not hired by DAL yet, but to interview or not? Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Ad up the number of profitable quarters in the past 1, 5, 10, years of each airline.

Decide which one you want your house payment to depend on!

BTW- We have 2 flights a day SLC-OAK you may jumpseat on.

Hmmm
 

Easy....SWA

i hate people like you

Ditto! :D

maybe DAL woul be a better fit for you:rolleyes:

Why not just interview and get offered the job first. Are options a bad thing?

BOY thats a tough situation..........I really feel for you...

Southwest Air to Slow Growth, Move to Boost Revenue
 

Sir, it's NOT an easy decision. Southwest is a strong company and Delta is a strong company and growing. Delta people endured painful cuts as Southwest set the pace for the industry. Now that the other airlines have trimmed the fat and reached that pace, Southwest is not the darling of Wall Street anymore.

Southwest has a lot of work to do, but will never be able to take advantage of the legacy carriers as it has in the past. Southwest has fallen victom to the low fare war it started.

I will NEVER triumph in the down fall of another, but the field is a bit more level now. Southwest has lost its edge and is no longer a LCC but a Legacy carrier with the same bloated salaries and over expansion the legacy carriers suffered from.

Minus AMR and NWA, the legacies jettisoned their pensions and other salaries to compete in the market place. The cuts were deep and to the bone.

Delta is taking delivery of 42 new aircraft between now and 2010. We are gaining 777's, 757's, 737's, and are in the market for a 100 seat aircraft. Southwest, as well as many legacy carriers are reducing capacity. I can tell you that every flight I have flown this week has been full. Most every flight is full and revenue is good.

You guys know like I know this crap is cyclical. Southwest is a great company, but I would not be surprised if they had to cut pay rates or implement other measures. They are already toying with the idea of international flights (through ATA) and assigned seating. Maybe they should stop advertising $49 dollar seats.

While Southwest is an EXCELLENT company to work for, come on over to Huff-Daland Duster. You will not be sorry.

Tom

__________________________________________________ _____________________


*** Southwest has struggled this year with demand that has slowed along with the U.S. economy and consumer sensitivity to even moderate ticket price increases. The carrier's jets flew about 70 percent full through May, the lowest percentage among the 10 largest U.S. airlines.


*** ``Southwest is morphing more and more into a regular airline,'' Susan Donofrio, a Cathay Financial analyst in New York, said in a note to investors. Southwest is no longer ``the less-mature, higher-growth airline that it was in the past.''



Southwest Air to Slow Growth, Move to Boost Revenue (Update4)


By Mary Schlangenstein

June 27 (Bloomberg) -- Southwest Airlines Co., the largest low-fare carrier, said it will expand less than planned, drop unprofitable routes and pursue more business travelers to help blunt rising fuel costs and sluggish demand.

Southwest will add 19 Boeing Co. 737s in 2008 instead of 34, Chief Executive Officer Gary Kelly said today in New York. The Dallas-based airline will slow capacity growth in the fourth quarter and all of 2008 to 6 percent, from 8 percent, and is still studying its 2009 and 2010 plans, he said.

Trimming growth and winning more corporate travel accounts will help fill planes and maximize revenue from each flight. Southwest slowed its expansion only once before in 35 years of flying, when it deferred delivery of 19 jets after the 2001 terrorist attacks.

``They are making some very necessary and smart changes that could prove very fruitful,'' Jim Corridore, a Standard & Poor's analyst in New York, said in an interview. ``It should be relatively easier for them to increase their penetration among business travelers.''

Southwest's cost to fly each airplane seat a mile, a measure of efficiency, has risen 20 percent in the last four years, threatening the airline's ability to grow profits while charging its signature low fares. The changes announced today will ``help restore profit growth,'' Kelly said.

``Our profits are lagging and we intend to adjust and to fix that,'' he said. ``Our model isn't broken, it's just a little bent.''

Shares of Southwest rose 19 cents to $14.83 at 4:01 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. They declined 4.4 percent this year before today.

Business Travelers

Southwest plans changes to its boarding and seating practices, frequent-flyer reward program and fare system. Those shifts, along with a new advertising campaign, will be aimed at wooing business travelers, who make up 40 percent of Southwest's passengers. The airline didn't give details today, saying the changes will be announced in the fourth quarter.

In total, Southwest expects to add $1 billion in new annual revenue by 2010, Kelly said. Sales totaled $9.1 billion in 2006.

The revenue target would amount to about $10 a passenger, based on projections that the airline will carry 100 million travelers by 2010, said consultant Robert Mann of R.W. Mann & Co. in Port Washington, New York.

`Doable'

``That's not a ton of money,'' Mann said. ``That's a good goal; not terribly aggressive. I'd say that's doable.''

Southwest is still studying other operational and revenue changes, including ways to shorten airport wait times by modifying baggage-handling and check-in procedures, and whether to sell items onboard or offer travel products on its Web site. The review of its boarding process began last year. Southwest is the only major carrier that doesn't assign seats.

``I would have liked them to be a little more forthcoming on what they are going to do with boarding,'' S&P's Corridore said. ``It is the thing customers complain about most -- the cattle car boarding.''

During the fourth quarter, Southwest will eliminate 39 existing round-trip flights, including some longer nonstop routes such as Los Angeles to Baltimore and Chicago to Oakland, California. Only one route is being discontinued -- between El Paso and Midland, Texas. The airline will use the capacity to add 46 new round-trip flights in areas where demand is growing.

Slowing Demand

Southwest has struggled this year with demand that has slowed along with the U.S. economy and consumer sensitivity to even moderate ticket price increases. The carrier's jets flew about 70 percent full through May, the lowest percentage among the 10 largest U.S. airlines.

While demand has improved recently, pricing has not, Kelly said today. ``June traffic is strong; July and August bookings look strong,'' he said. Yields, or average fare per mile, are down in June and ``may continue to be down.''

Southwest won't meet its goal in 2006 of increasing annual earnings per share at least 15 percent, Kelly said.

``Southwest is morphing more and more into a regular airline,'' Susan Donofrio, a Cathay Financial analyst in New York, said in a note to investors. Southwest is no longer ``the less-mature, higher-growth airline that it was in the past.''

Donofrio, who rates the shares as ``underperform,'' cut her 12-month price target for the stock by $1 to $12.

Southwest hasn't decided how to trim the number of aircraft being added to its fleet next year, Kelly said. The airline may return some planes at the end of their leases, defer deliveries from Boeing or sell some of the jets it owns, Kelly said.

`Older Aircraft'

``It makes more sense to us to sell older aircraft and return aircraft under lease rather than defer deliveries,'' said Douglas Runte, an analyst with RBS Greenwich Capital Markets in Greenwich, Connecticut. Older planes burn more fuel and have higher maintenance costs. Southwest's older 737s have an average age of 16 years, Runte said.

Fuel and labor are airlines' biggest expenses. A gallon of jet fuel for immediate delivery in New York Harbor has surged 18 percent this year. Jet fuel has averaged $1.93 a gallon so far this year, 27 percent more than the same period in 2005.

Did they already give you a class date? I interviewed in March with they type and I'm available in August and I haven't been called yet.

No, just an interview date. Also thinking that taking the interview and being fortunate enough to get hired and then possibly turning it down would burn that bridge with a company I really like.

This was an easy call 6 months ago (shoot, even two months ago)...it's a toss up now!!

SWA has a great track record, a phenomenal corporate culture and all analysts are still predicting profits around 450 million for this year and more next year. But, they have 200+ in the pool, and I heard (but not confirmed) they CNX the July class. Almost 1500 folks have been hired since 2004, and it now appears hiring will be cut in half. Anyone starting now is on the back end of the wave and will be looking at a longer upgrade.

Delta has certainly taken a beating the last few years, and while many there are optimistic, getting back a good chunk of the pay is not certain. They appear to have made dramatic cuts in cost outside of just labor, and pilots there tell me they are being used far more efficiently than in the past (Reserves are flying 75+ hours on almost all types). If hired now at Delta, you will be getting in on the front end of what Delta believes will be a prolonged hiring period. Ask any of the old timers if it is good to be in the first 200 hired after a 6 year pause.

Codfather...do not pass up the opportunity at Delta. I was in your exact same position 1 month ago. It took me 7 days to call back for the interview once I got the E-Mail. I thought for sure I would just use Delta as a back-up (was not sure I wanted to burn the bridge). After being fortunate enough to talk to the Delta folks and get hired, I have been doing my research. I am slowly moving more toward taking the Delta gig. I have been told by both SWA and Delta to expect an August class, so I have about one more month to watch things develop. Seeing things happen the way they are at SWA, I am very grateful to have another strong choice...Both are solid and you can't go wrong...Go to the interview!!

I appreciate the advice from everyone. Your judgment is only as good as your information so it's good to hear from some vets out there. Thanks again for the inputs.

Go Ugly early!!!!!!
 

These airline jobs are like dating ugly women......
I vote to go ugly early, All the best laid plans can
go inverted quickly. And you have nothing to say about it.

Lots of great airlines from the past are only still alive
in the history books.

I would interview all both and take the first one that says YES to you.
Both companies are great. Its all a crapshoot till the day you
cash your retirement check.

In my class 2 guys jumped ship , one to SWA and one to UAL.
UAL looked great then, SWA was just a punk kid down the street.

Now Look!

Well said.

at least DAl won't make you pay for your job:rolleyes:

Give it up already. First year pay more then makes up for the type rating.

doesn't make it right.

Depends
 

If you want to have fun at your job, get paid fairly, sweet hotel discounts, and won't hate the support personnel, go with SW.
If you have a corn cob inserted down stairs or want to be involved in the pitting of labor groups against each other, go with those other guys. Mind you that DAL has a 'few' of these.

Lets see:

1. SWA has never had a pilot layoff.
2. SWA has lost money in only one quarter of thier history.

Enough said

I say interview. Options are always great. The bad thing is that you will never know you made the right decision until the end. The thing to remember about airlines is there are those that have been bankrupt and those that will. At one time or another every airline has been the darling of the industry and been the butt of it as well. SWA has not been through any really tough times yet and by no means do I wish any on them. Just remember that NO airline is immune to problems. Good luck.

So I guess SWA's first 3 or 4 years in business when Braniff and Continental were trying to put them out of business doesn't constitute the company going through any really tough times?

-----------------------------------------------------

Which begs the question....WHY would anyone even wonder about this decision. Slamm dunk.....SWA.

Tough room but all good points. No crystal ball so do what's best for you and your family. I had a chance to fly the 757 for TransMeridian. Would've been a great choice for me to fly the plane I always wanted to fly and I'd be able to commute on Tmid from my home city. Decided to stay at my regional to get more PIC time and in the meantime, Tmid closed its doors. I know SWA and DAL aren't going anywhere soon so ask yourself how both choices will affect your family. Good luck to you!

What in the world are you smoking cus I wan't some. 30 plus years in the industry makeing money, no layoff's no furlough, company from the verry start had to fight to survive. we have not cxld any clases for july. It's funny how everybody thinks we have lost our advantage. what you forget to think about is that delta is buying new airplanes=more debt, amr, ual and cal are contract negotiations delta willdef. want a piece=more debt. fuel is going up=more debt. you wan't to go to delta be my guest have but don't say you haven't been warned.

What an idiot. Having trouble seeing the forest for the trees? Its a requirement for the job. Lets see spend $5-7000 and receivee an extra $20-30,000 for first year pay. Hmmm that there is some of that Delta math you guys have trouble with (This remark was made in fun. It has no way been made to demean any one company). SWA isnt making money from the type rating. It gets OLD reading it over and over and over and over and over again. I was hired without the type. Went and got the type and am gainfully employeed.

Huron,
Sorry, I thought you were talking about DAL. Got hired by SWA and was told last week to expect a class date call in a week or so. DAL is an INTERVIEW invite only.

Well put
 

Funny how everyone thinks "ITS OVER" for SWA because they announced some changes to better match whats happening to the US economy and peoples affordability to fly. That folks, is what is called GOOD MANAGEMENT of a company. Actually looking out into the future. WOW....AMAZING CONCEPT.

SWA has been doing this stuff for 37 years. There are rough spots all over this industry and SWA is good at doing its best to counter act and ACT logically to whats happening.

Past performance is NEVER an indicator of future results...but SWA is like a freakin' cockroach after a nucler bomb detonation. It will do what it has to in order to survive. 37 years of profits proves that.

Dude, if they don't want to pay it, they don't have to. Make's more room for the people who WANT to be there.

I think the system works great.

As far as July classes being canx: There were originally two classes scheduled for July but not confirmed. Only one of the two dates was confirmed.

There were NO pilots that were told they had a class and then didn't get the class.

There are currently three classes prog'ed for August, but NO CONFIRMED classes in August.

I have to laugh. SWA says growth will slow to 6% and some people think they must be on the verge of bankruptcy.

What if the Type cost $50,000, would that be ok? Then the people that Really Really wanted to be there could. And don't think for a second that somebody wouldn't pay it.

Life is full of choices.

Everybody draws a line between what they think they're owed and what they think they have to earn.

My line is somewhere North of $7000 and south of $50,000.

NOBODY got here for free.

Man!? There's an awful lot of hubris on the part of some of you SWA guys. All this it will never happen here or to me talk is usually a precursor to some rough patches. I wish you guys all the luck in the world. Honestly.

SWA never appealed to me for some reason. Maybe a 73 for the rest of my career or no chance for different exciting flying.... my fear of gas statons.... something... what ever it is, to each his own. All that vibrato and arrogance would worry me.

Gee, that is funny I also have a fear of windshear, especially going into DFW on the southern runways........


:rolleyes:

WOW! ...............
BTW, that was due to a relatively new discovery. WINDSHEAR. And before A LOT of training was put into that.
Not an unstabilized approach due to CREW!!!:rolleyes:

I don't think the windshear comment is warranted, dude. People are just arguing about paying for type rating, it's not a life and death thing.

For the record, I've got the biggest RICHARD here! Just kidding. To the original poster, good luck and God Speed with whatever you decide. If Delta hires you and you choose to come here, I'm certain you will love it. Take care.

Tom

I agree. People's fear of the unknown and uncertainty make them do and say strange things. All it would take is a Sum of All Fears type of event, and half of us would be out of work.

Tom

Paying for type
 

I don't think that paying for a type is ALL that bad.
If you want to work for SWA then you need to do what they
say. Its like any other requirement for 121 OPS.
1st class medical, and all the other crap.

If you don't want to pay for the education, then
don't apply there. Thats the program at SWA, it seems
to have worked good enough for them for 3 decades.

I have several types and never paid for any of them.

If you consider most other companies (part 91) Flexjet and the like
they will
spring the bill for training but want you to stick around for
a couple of years.
Nobody seems to be up in arms about that?

For me, I wish I would have went to SWA.
But at the time AA was the juggernaut, little did
I or anyone else know. Its all a big gamble.

Between the foolishness here there are some good points.

If you go with DAL, you are buying a stock at the low water mark. It doesn't mean the stock won't go lower. It does have good upside.

SWA is a chugging along. You buying a stock high. Then again...its a GOOD stock...proven performer.

Either way--a better question is where do you want to be an F/O for 10 years. I think either way--that's the real choice. Slowing growth at SWA, the young pilot group left at DAL, and age 60 going away all combine to mean the bottom half of the pay scale is the part you need to consider for a while.

Either way--you got a good choice. Good luck and pass on some pireps....