Pilots Defending the Profession
 

Has anyone heard of these guys?

Pilots Defending the Profession

http://www.apapdp.org


SkyHigh

Yes
 

I used to call them Pilots Destroying the Profession; however, I think their time has finally come.

More like "Punks Doing Pot"; these radical, militants are way off the deep end. Mostly "Full Pay to the Last Day" malcontents from AA's LGA & MIA bases, which coincidentally are the junior bases where most 6-yr Captains are. (You know, the ones who think the world and this industry OWE them a living!)

Reading their drivel is like reading a Michael Moore book or trying to reason with your dog. No wait...sometimes you actually can reason with your dog.

6 year Capts
 

No SH*T, I didn't think anybody had six year Capts anymore. I though that was just a Airline Myth put out by HR.:D

6 year Captains at AA?
 

The most Jr. Captain in LGA for AA is a 2/90 hire, almost 16 years (MD-80). The most Jr. Captain in MIA is a 7/89 hire, over 16 years (737). Just the FACTS:eek:

Ok, Chuck...when did those guys actually MAKE Captain? I'm betting the late 90's, and almost noone lost thier seat or status after AA and APA slaughtered the TWA employees. Again, just the 'facts'.

First off boys and girls PDP is a great outlet to hear the "other side of the story"(we know there are 2 sides). These people are just stating facts, but it's hard for lots of people at AA and APA to comprehend this.
Secondly,TWA employees were not "slaughtered" by APA or AMR. I think it's fortunate that some still have a job because if AMR didn't buy them they would all be out on the street!!!
Happy trails!!!!

Hearing the other side of the arguement only helps when the other side has a valid point. Thus far, anything the PDP has put out is pure rubbish. These guys have their head way too deep in the sand to figure anything out, unfortunately, their type of thinking is quiet common at AA. However, the current APA leadership doesn't really give me a warm and fuzzy either since it seems our leader is more interested in running the company instead of worrying about the pilot group.
As for the assumption that TWA would be out of business, it's a pure assumption and I guess we will never know. Now if one makes the assumption that TWA would have been out of business, then one would also have to make the statement that the 2891 furloughs would have all come from the ranks of AA, so the junior folks should really be thankful that AA did buy TWA, as they were shielded from loss of employment.

XTWAPILOT,

I'll play. You start by listing one or more items PDP has put out that's "pure rubbish", then I'll respond and the readers of this forum can decide whether or not it's "rubbish".

Okay, how about that $935 million PDP claimed pilots gave up in the first year of the contract? The only place they could have gotten that number is from the 7th rock from the sun. There is enough public info out there to do the math, and you ain't even close.

What else can you expect from a bunch of prissy cowards who hide behind a website with some high soundin name like "Defending the Profesion"

Alan, I don't even know where to begin. I can write an entire essay on your quoted forcast alone. Plus the forcast doesn't have anything to do with productivity, if AA is to survive, it must become more productive. your group is so hung up on hourly rates, that you forget that total compensation is simply not just hourly rates, other forms of compensation can be added to bring total compensation up, ala SWA and Jetblue. Your group continually talks about how AA pilots have one of the lowest hourly rates currently, somehow tying that up with lower costs. It's simply not true, because AA is so unproductive, it takes more AA pilots to do the same job. For example if it takes one company 8 guys to pave a driveway at $6/hr, and another group does the same job with 4 guys but they get paid $10/hr, then company A's total costs are $48/hr and it's employees are lower paid, whereas company B does the same job for $40/hr, and has higher paid employees to boot. This is where AA is at, lower pay and unproductive, where we need to get is higher pay, and high productivity.
your position on the A plan, simply put, the A plan must go, and it will benefit pilots if it goes. Let me give you another example, Pensions are funded based on assumed rates of return, which presents a huge conflict of interest for the company, if they get THEIR actuary to assume a high rate of return, then they have to put out less money to fund the plan, i.e. AA was still assuming a 9% rate of return well into 8 months after 911 when the entire market was down in the negatives. Then all of a sudden they start screaming that they are severely underfunded, it was their own doing. To top it all off the A plan is never safe, any time a company visits Chapter 11, it could all go away, just ask the US Air guys. A better choice would be to have the company put the equivalent of 15% of our salary(thats in addition to our salary, not from our salary, just to make it clear) into a DAP type account where it's our money and AA can't touch it, and it's BK proof, it's in our 401K and can't be touched by the company, nor can it be used as leverage to extract anything. These are just some of the things. Now as you respond, it might be a while before i read and respond to you because I leave tomorrow for work, but I will respond.

Well, here's a sample of PDP thought/belief I pulled off PDP's editorial page for the forum to read over and sample to help determine exactly who PDP is.. . It's a pretty decent product, overall...and I'll take this group and their reasoned arguments over an ad hominem attack...anyday.

Maybe folks should peruse the PDP website, read the op/ed located therin, and form their own opinion before agreeing with the rock-throwers on this site.

ADIRU



AMR Corporate Attitude - Setting the Standard?
PDP Editorials - Editorials
Wednesday, 04 May 2005
The following letter was sent by SFO based Captain Bill Haug to American Airlines Vice President of Flight Mark Hettermann. Captain Haug is one of the leaders of the American Employees for Ownership (BuyItFixIt) effort.

Mark,

On April 8th, Captain Hunter (APA President) sent a letter to the pilots, the "sick letter". In it, he stated that APA had been in discussions with AA about pilot sick rates, and a Flight Department Manager had said that the pilots are "an unreliable asset base."

It is difficult for me to convey the disgust and revulsion that I felt after reading this. It is incomprehensible to me that, after the long, sordid, and tortured experience that American Airlines has had with the arrogant, foolish, and counterproductive practice of condemning an entire employee group for the actions of a few, a Flight Department Manager would say something so stupid. That any AA manager, much less one in the Flight Department, could so blithely sweep aside and trivialize the vast monetary and other sacrifices this pilot group has made for the benefit of American Airlines is astonishing.

And, perhaps, revealing. Captain Scott Griffith, to his credit, kicked off the discussion at the SFO Safety Standup earlier this year by saying that "we think our main problem is arrogance." I did not disagree, but responded to Captain Griffith that the greatest arrogance I had personally witnessed was arrogance expressed by various AA managers. Arrogance breeds arrogance, and does nothing to solve any of our problems. A wise man once said, "you cannot solve a problem by condemning it."

In your Flight Manual Part One Prologue you stated:

"This prologue to our Part One sets our standard as we seek to strengthen our airline through a vital support-leadership role."

"I ask each of you to recommit to the personal discipline, humility, self-sacrifice and adherence to policy and procedure that will serve as an example to all our employees, as well as enhance the standing of our profession."

"With this understanding, we should stake out the high ground of patience, humility, and emotional even-handedness in our interactions with passengers, crew, and fellow employees."

The statement Captain Hunter attributed to a Flight Department Manager was lacking in humility, was a poor example, was not emotionally even-handed, and did not exhibit patience. It degraded, rather than enhanced, the "standing of our profession" while addressing the sins of a very small minority in our ranks. It negated the huge self-sacrifice that our pilots have made, and continue to make, to keep our company solvent.

And, it was wrong.

I am profoundly, profoundly disappointed. In a few short words, a Flight Department Manager has undermined everything you have said in your credo, "Setting the Standard", exhorting us to take a leadership role.

I guess it just proves once again that one cannot "Set the Standard" with words ... only with actions. One can lead only by example, and no other way.

Regards,

Bill Haug
CA SFO
Unreliable Asset #xxxxxxx

Personally, I find their actions to be honorable... while I have my own thoughts about where some mainline pay scales have climbed to (certainly I don't think that the pre 9/11 scales were sustainable), I do think that it's time that somebody took a damn stand over the continued backpeddling by pilots. Management takes and takes and takes, and when they can take no more, they declare BK and file to have contracts thrown out so they can take again.

All the while they are building their golden parachutes and taking "paycuts" (but still keeping enough to keep that million dollar home and 3 lexus payments).

I would have liked to see regional pilots take a stand first, but I'll take what I can get.

Thank god for the PDP. If it were not for those guys the sissy split tails who run the APA BOD would give away everything. Too bad those ungrateful ex-TWA boobs want to destroy AA, not help it succeed.

Do I smell Sovich, Hunt, or Darrah?
 

I have been watching this thread. To all others who might be playing fly on the wall let me point out that the current adminisration at APA will be rewarded by management for selling out the pilot group. I say again, to all the pilots reading this type of drivel, over the coming months you will be reading much on both C&R and in chat rooms all over the net about how screwed up the PDP is. Please remember that the pilots selling you out have a vested interest in seeing the deal go through. The current APA president was asked to sign a simple letter stating that he would not accept a management pilot position after the deal was done. He refused. What more do you lemmings need to hear? It appears that B757200ER is just one more beaten down pilot who will be hoping for favors or a cushy management pilot job in exchange for helping the crooks that are in office at the moment. Darrah is a perfect example, as the arbiter of the APA pilots previous contract and current demise, he gets to go play in at the office doing "research" while the rest of us fly the line. Another example of this was that TWA guy "Bounds". He helped sell out his fellow TW pilots and was rewarded with the furloughs being stopped just below his sen number. Until they got what they wanted out of him and he was dropped into FUR status like a John loses a jimmy hat. HEY BOUNDS! How's that eagle job treating you? You got the Flowbacks organized yet? The list of pilots that have helped sell out the AA guys grows with each passing contract. What's really sad is that the majority of AA skirt wearers never learn. Of course it's not really their fault. It all goes back to a meeting with Crandall and Judy back in the day. Legend has it that Bob paid a bunch of shrinks big bucks to come up with a way to screen pilots using the test we all took at the interview. Using this test as a filter they were able to hire only the most compliant and directable pilots. Unless you were smart enough to game the test. So essentially what we have today is a union and an airline run by order taking B scale losers that couldn't get a job at any of the REAL airlines back then, like Pan Am or TWA. :D

AA pilots, you gave up almost a BILLION dollars. What did you get? More RJs. You foolishly enabled, like an alcoholics wife, the current management to stay in place. AA Flight Attendants, Gate Agents, and Mechanics work under industry leading contracts. While your union is about to come to you for more givebacks. They'll say no more displacements and no more furloughs but like you've heard before, things will change. Management will continue to come to the pilots for money or more productivity until you say enough. Let them get it somewhere else this time. Force them to spin off Eagle. If they won't do that then fix the Eagle cost sharing issue. AMR is hiding how much of a REAL drain Eagle is on the AA system, they do this because it behooves them to make it seem like AA is in worse shape than it is. Eagle is draining AA's bottom line day by day. AA pilots, stop the enabling now!

Skypilot,

You could have gone to the PDP website and seen how the dollar value, which by the way is $936.18 million, was reached. There is a line by line cost savings analysis of the various contract items. The link to the page is:

http://www.apapdp.org/cms/index.php?...ask=view&id=15

It can also be reached by visiting the PDP home page and clicking the Contract '03 - Our View link. In this analysis, there is a link to a Contract Valuation Analysis page that shows where the numbers used in the Contact '03 - Our View article came from. Here's the link to the Contract Valuation Analysis page:

http://www.apapdp.org/cms/index.php?...sk=view&id=333

The numbers are all there. If you'd like to discuss any particular line item, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

As an aside, how about stating your name and current airline or occupation for the record. You can stand up and be a man, or you can remain anonymous and lose all credibility.

OK. But remember, PDP's numbers [http://www.apapdp.org/cms/index.php?...ask=view&id=15] came from APA, and PDP added in a few items APA "forgot" about, like reductions in retirement funding and FICA commensurate with the 23% reduction in pay. Also, APA's numbers, as provided to the LGA Domicile by LGA Chairman Captain Sam Mayer, did not include any savings for furloughees, which PDP did include based on valuation provided by a former negotiator. See http://www.apapdp.org/cms/index.php?...sk=view&id=333

While some numbers have been bandied about recently regarding AA pilot productivity, the numbers are confusing and conflicting. In fact, in a recent message to the AA pilots, the APA ORD domicile representatives were quoted as saying that "Southwest pilots average 96 - 130 hours a year more than AA domestic pilots." Yet in the same communication, there were 2 charts attributed to the DOT that showed AA pilots flying 20 hours per month, 241 hours per year, less than SWA pilots. So in the same message, APA puts out hugely different numbers for the same metric.

However, PDP has mentioned in several newsletters and/or editorials that any productivity shortfall is not an AA pilot problem but rather an AA scheduling (read: management) problem. The AA pilot contract gives AA the ability to schedule effectively, management has simply chosen not to schedule effectively or lacks the ability to schedule effectively.

And don't forget to factor in items like the massive training (read: non-flying) requirements associated with nearly 2900 furloughs, and other "Structural Productivity" items like furloughees going to recurrent one month before their furlough, F100 Captains who go to recurrent one month early before their next month's displacement to 767 First Officer, ORD 737 Captains who spend four months awaiting training because the aircraft are gone from ORD and no displacement training slots are open. Are flowbacks, who are "awaiting training", carried as AA pilots for purposes of "stick" hours? The list goes on.

No mention is made of the methodology used to arrive at the 47 "stick" hours per month for AA pilots? Until we know the underlying numbers, all of them, that factor into the "stick" hour comparison, it's anyone's guess as to their validity.

In any case, PDP's position is, and has been, that AA management has not made effective use of the scheduling efficiencies inherent in the current contract, and until they utilize all scheduling efficiencies, further talk of productivity enhancements is premature.

Regarding total compensation comparisons to Southwest, AMR is currently seeking to "cherry pick" the best parts (for them) of the SWA contract and apply them at AA. PDP's position is that if AMR wants a SOuthwest style contract, it's "all or nothing". And PDP agrees that any compensation comparison to SWA should include total compensation.

Regarding the A-Plan, PDP's first and overriding consideration is that if a change is made to the A-Plan, all pilots must be made whole. There can be no loss of value for any pilot, from the most senior to the most junior. Consideration must also be given to the fact that with longer upgrade time, many AA pilots will be earning lower FO wages for a longer portion of their career. The current A-Plan, which relies on LOS and FAE (not career earnings), does offer some protection for seat stagnation issues.

As in the previous topic discussed, the unrealistically high rates of return assumed by AA management are a management problem. Unfortunately, it's the pilots who suffer the consequences and must act to clean up management's mess.

Several themes run through many of the PDP newsletters and editorials over the past 2 1/2 years:

• Follow the APA C&B and Policy Manual;
• All agreements must be in writing prior to voting on them;
• Upside for the pilots;
• Equity stakes;
• AMR BOD seat;
• Accountability, both at AMR and at APA;
• APA should be pilot advocates, not AMR managers.

I'm sure you'll agree with these themes, and with others I've forgotten about.

As an aside, how about stating your name for the record.

[QUOTE=Alan Pollenz]Skypilot,

You could have gone to the PDP website and seen how the dollar value, which by the way is $936.18 million, was reached. There is a line by line cost savings analysis of the various contract items. The link to the page is:

http://www.apapdp.org/cms/index.php?...ask=view&id=15


You aledged "cost savings analysis" is just a model based on what you think the line items were worth. And it's completely bogus. Try going to the actual financil reports. You do know what 10-K's, 10-Q's, and Form 41's are, don't you? Let me spell it out. Take the the four quarter prior to May 2003 and the four quarter after, and do the math. That is the ACTUAL cost savings in the first year, not some wild-assed guess. You won't get any wher near $900 mil. Nice try though.

Here another one. How bout that piece you sent by Westbrook? The man actualy thinks that parking the fokers increases pilot productivity. He only counts the debt he want to count. What a riot! I've seen some good replies on C&R demolishing his stuff. You guys going to put out the other side? Thought not! "Unbiased" indeed!

SkyPile,

Alan quotes fact and has hard proof of what he speaks...you just blow it out your ass with what you want to believe created in your small, narrow mind.

Sorry, but the truth hurts pal.

Super80

[QUOTE=Skypilot]

Some people prove the old saw about leading a horse to water but not being able to force him to drink....

So, according to some on this thread, because APA/AMR agreed not to assess any value to the parts of the contract GIVEN to AMR by APA (IMO, as a result of poor planning and negotiating) while PDP correctly stated that this real estate has value...and we estimate it at XXX based on YYY...PDP's numbers are off or PDP is putting out bad data?

For example, from Contract '03;

Loosened RJ50 wraps; APA given no credit. Mike Boyd estimated this to be worth $200M/yr in 2000.

Pilots on reserve lost 1 day off per month. No value for APA on this.

Increased lock-ins after training. No value credited to APA for this.

Permit domestic codeshare. No value to APA's pilots for this.

I could go on and on....but there was a LOT of value from our contract that was given away for FREE because of incompetence, ineptitude or corruption (maybe all three) on the APA leadership's part. These items didn't/won't end up overnight in an SEC document. But they have VALUE, none the less.

Of course, we could continue to look at it like APA's current leaders, who seem to be the type of neighbor next door AMR would just love to have. APA wouldn't gripe if AMR's dog likes using his yard to make a deposit better than it's own or if AMR builds a fence well over on APA's side of the property line. In fact, AMR insists that APA clean up the dog-doo and dig the post holes!

Course when Neighbor #3 (PDP) shows up to tell APA he's getting screwed...well it's amazing who starts raising a stink about what a bad neighbor PDP is!

PDP has done a great job giving a counter-point to the propaganda spewing from AMR/AAPA. If PDP's points weren't so "on the mark", I don't think the little piggy's over at AMR/AAPA would be squealing so loudly...

ADIRU

SHACK! Spot on!

The contract changes were for REAL dollar changes, not theoretical dollare changes. PDP puts out theoretical numbers and calls them real. Kind of like the old joke that ends with the line, "In theory we're sitting on a milion bucks. In reality we're living with a couple of prostitutes" You can make up whatever screwedup, pie in the sky number you want, but if it doesn't show up on the bottom line, then it doesnt show up on the botom line.

And on the Eagle thing, according to PDP, Eagle LOSES revenue. If so, how's that a PLUS for AA? Seems like you should be subtracting from the numbers instead of adding. Cant have you cake and eat it to.

What's a dollare? Must be some kind of TWA thing. Oh, I forgot...they are long dead and buried.

Other Side?
 

Out of 22,000 TWA employees working when AA bought them, only 1500 are left at AA.

Definition of 'Slaughter' in dictionary: "massacre, carnage".

Anyone disagee? Again, just stating FACTS. AA and their 'unions' conspired to wipe out the employees at TWA from the get-go. It is well-known.

Looks like the pot calling the kettle black to me. I don't have a dog in this fight, but anyone posting anonymously under names like "skypilot" and "xtwapilot" shouldn't be so fast to say that others are cowards in hiding.

Ckd...?
 

Hey Dude... your username is way to long a confusing to address you by name! Can I just abbreviate and call you CKD?

Anyway...CKD...what is C&R first of all? And why are you so suprised at union guys who eventually gravitate to management? Is'nt that how it is everywhere? Definate conflict of interest, eh? Who is current APA President, and why does HE want to be in management?

Next, you say I'm 'beaten down', well maybe I am after 7 airlines and 5 furloughs, but hey---I'm still working! And I don't seem nearly as disgruntled as you appear to be. I've been offered management jobs and check airman jobs and I'm not interested. I'm a line-guy, period.

About AA, they're just like everybody else, except they're not in Chapter 11---yet. Continental, USAirways, AWA, Delta and United all gave away mainline NB jet flying to regional, code-sharing subsidiaries. RJs are all over now, flying 3 hour stage lengths from major hubs. What does that have to do with AA pilots (or APA) giving up pay and benefits? AA is just continuing the industry standard in the current marketplace---they're replacing F-100/717/MD80 flying with Eagle RJs.

Uhhh....ok SkyP.

So the guys on reserve, who are now working 1 extra day per month but yet saw no "credit" on our side of the ledger for their "give" are dealing with "pie in the sky"? No value was given by AMR for this..but it's interesting to see your take on it..

You only appear to value what makes it to the SEC. SEC data IS important, but making a decision on the VALUE of Contract concessions based on only 1 data point like SEC data is like "hoping" the ACARS uplinked the flight plan into the FMC ok...and not checking it point by point, line by line against the flight plan.

For example, with all the screwups by AMR in implementing the concessionary agreement as previously mentioned (so much so that Roy Everett had to run a master "shuffle"-TWICE, sending training costs thru the roof!) and which DEFINITELY affected the COSTS listed on the SEC documentation. So is SEC data then worthless because AMR spiked the costs thru incompetence? Heck no! But, it should be viewed with a grain of salt for what it represents. The question needing to be raised is "Who pays" when AMR screws up like this? Sounds (to me) like you think AA Pilots should pony up again, instead of turning and pointing to that given but gone unvalued by management and saying "here's your value-now go fix the factory."

Also, you need to think a little more independently and consider who is better served if AMR over- or under-reports cost savings on contract concessions given the company?

In sum;

APA did a poor job assigning value in 2003 to that which was given.

AMR did a poor job of implementing, spiking costs.

Other employee groups have taken a pass on giving AMR another bite at the apple, yet APA feels compelled to contribute yet again. Why?

Why are APA's leaders so much smarter than the TWU or APFA? Why does our union president who has a debilitating disease (MS) and who's medical status after union office will be problematic, refuse to agree NOT to become part of the management team he's now "negotiating" against? What questions does that raise in the membership's mind?

Finally, as regards to your Eagle comment, as I said earlier Mike Boyd put the $$$ number on the give, not me. It was what his estimate of the COST to the company were APA to have done THAT flying at THAT time...see how that works? As it turns out, it now looks like it WOULD have been cheaper to keep that flying in-house, what with how obvious it is to all that at today's costs that EA (or RJ's in general) are a giant black hole for cash.

ADIRU

I'm not big on handles, and I believe that one should post under their own name, however, I like this one.

CrtyKdwDrrh=rpyhntrsvch

Carty Kudwa Darrah = Arpey Hunter Sovich

Skypilot,

First, PDP did not just assign the value they “thought” the items were worth. The source for all costs but one was APA. The one cost not sourced to APA was the cost saving per furloughee, and this was supplied by a negotiator who was intimately familiar with the pilot cost structure, having been on the committee until late 2002 or early 2003.

Second, have you looked at the 10K for 2002 [http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/6...08197z10-k.htm
] and 2003 [http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/6...12953e10vk.htm], or the 10Q for 1Q2003 [http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/6...30/ar1q03g.txt] or 2Q2003
[http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/6...5/ar2q03f.txt?]

Where in these documents does it break out labor costs by employee group? Further, even if it did, you cannot compare before and after snapshots as you try to do. The mere fact that American Airlines may have flown more/fewer block hours than during the prior time period would skew the comparison and render it invalid.

Finally, add the “no value” items to the $660 million admitted to by APA, or the $810 admitted to by Chairman of the Negotiating Committee Ed White on “APA Live”, and you have concessions well in excess of the $936+ million PDP valuation.

Remember, the vast majority of the numbers came from APA and AMR, not PDP. PDP simply added in a few cost items, such as retirement fund contribution savings, FICA savings, and savings attributed to 2100 additional furloughs, conveniently omitted by APA/AMR, and pointed out some other “no value” items, such as Scope, Domestic Codeshare, and several other items.

And you offer what, other than misspellings, to counter Captain Westbrook’s commentary?

Sorry Skypilot, but Domestic Codeshare, Scope concessions in the form of loosened RJ wraps, changes to the International Baseline Agreement, elimination of split reliefs, changes to the Tulsa Agreement, and increased lockins all have real dollar value for AMR.

Regarding Eagle revenue, how does an entity lose revenue?

Like I said, all the stuf "Pilots Dissin Pilots" used is based on what someone "thinks" its worth, not what really happened with costs. Hey, if you cant read public documents and do the math, then maybe you shouldnt be in the business of putting out financal opinions.

As far as the play by play demolishing of Westbrook, go look at C&R. You going to give those guys "equal time" ?

Hey, you shuld know. Your the guys saying Eagle's a money loser, right? Cant be worth much to AMR if thats true.

Thanks for interpretation
 

Alan Pollenz:
Thanks for the Arpey/Hunter/Sovich explanation. I was having a fit with that. Tell you what, this is an interesting thread and I am so hAAppy that I'm watching it from the outside now. Good luck to all of you still at AA. I'm just hoping that the freaking "A plan" survives long enough for me to get a check from it.
Best Regards,
F&H

There is nothing in the documents that breaks out costs by employee group. What is in the 2002 documents, on file with the SEC, is that the company asked the pilots for $660 million in concessions. The 2003 documents, also on file with the SEC, state that the company received $660 million in concessions from the pilots. Do you think the company falsified SEC documents?

Based on the items that were valued, PDP agreed. Of course, there were some items not valued, and that's where PDP stated the cost went from $660 to $936+ million.

Again, that's in documents filed with the SEC.

Further, if an employee group gives $936 million in concessions, and the company goes and gives another employee group raises, it will skew the result.

Bob Herbst, who seems to have the most to say about anything PDP puts out regarding numbers, has been offered an opportunity to submit material for PDP publication several times. He has refused the offer each time. No one else has approached PDP regarding "equal time."

Of course, since you think PDP should give the other C&R guys "equal time," do you think APA should give PDP "equal time?"

Before the large Fuel Spike!

..................



American Eagle Lost Nearly $900,000 Per Day in First Quarter 2005

American Eagle President Peter Bowler, while discussing improvements to the revenue side of the balance sheet, recently stated:

"Any progress will be helpful in closing the gap of nearly $500 per departure between cost and revenue that existed during the first quarter of 2005."

American Eagle has 1800 daily departures.

Source: American Eagle Connections, Volume 16, Number 5, May 2005

Talk about not being able to read financial documents!

Eagle does not lose revenue. However, Eagle's revenues are less than their expenses.

For the nine months ended September 30, 2005, Eagle had revenue of $1,582,000,000 and expenses of $1,860,000,000. You do the math.

Not only did Eagle lose money, their YOY loss as compared to the first nine months of 2004 increased 114%, from $130 million in 2004 to $278 million in 2005.

Source: http://www.aa.com/content/amrcorp/pr...ncialsp2.jhtml

if it's any consolation to you AA guys, and it probably won't be, we here at CO have been sold out just as badly by our MEC as yours. and this trend is accelerating. look at the sell-out at NW and DL.

i know our MEC officers have been paid off, i just don't know how much or what form it's in.

we were told that the company's deadline, feb 28th, was "just another date on the calendar" and that the stuff the company wanted gave us great leverage to get what we needed in exchange for the "loan" we were going to give them. well, our negotiating committee worked long nights forking it all over to management. in the end, we had a deal on feb 28th that had ZERO upside. we lost a MAJOR portion of our retirement (not to worry, the rest of it will be stolen later), we lost pay, work rules, etc with ZERO snapbacks which means we'll be starting from scratch again in 5 years.

in the mean time, our CEO makes over six million a year and will probably leave with over $200 million in "career" earnings here, if you call less than 10 years a "career".

ALPA has failed MISERABLY in what should be its primary goal: defending the profession. instead, they cower in the corner, sign "partnership agreements" with the devil, and sell us out, airline by airline, in order to keep the dues pipeline open. only a miracle will save us now and the nazis, i mean, "management" have outlawed miracles.

Just proves that you dont know the diference between net and gross. The only way you can count it against the 03 contract "costing" is if Eagle contributed NET money to AMRs revenue line. Otherwise, its worth diddly-squat to AMR. You just proved they dont, so you cant use that as one of your APA giveaways. trying to have you cake and eat it to. As far as the cost breakdown between employees, the answer is DOT Fm 41. Just showing more of your PDP ignorance.

Skypilot;

I been lurking here and have decided to register; if only to say one thing.

Allen Pollenz has made reasoned, respectful, polite, and factual responses to your shrill, disrespectful, accusatory, and childlike posts. There is NO QUESTION in my mind who has come out ahead in this debate.

It's OK to have different opinions, but you sir, have been indignant to the point where my perception of you is that you seem to be the kind of person who would trample on the backs of your peers to cross a piccket line. I would be willing to bet that you're a deadbeat dad who owes thousands of dollars in back child-support after your wife left you because she couldn't stand your abrasive arrogant ass! I bet your the kind spineless weenie who would take a job flying an Airbus 320 for $45.00/hour; just so you could tell the chicks you're a jet driver! ("Chicks" is the only favor I'm willing to concede).

There; I feel better. And keep it up PDP. I'm always willing to listen to REASONED arguments from both sides

Alan IS CORRECT!

Because RJs BURN MORE FUEL/SEAT THAN A 727 THAT CANNOT CARRY CARGO, ITS GAME OVER FOR 50% OF ALL RJ OPS!

YOU BOTTOM 50% RJ PILOTS BETTER GET THE HELL OUT NOW BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!