Continental Equipment System Bid Seniority and DOH
 

The following is based on the latest CAL equipment system bid that is effective next August. This means that theoretically this is how our airline will be staffed on August 1, 2008. This is based on a snap shot of the bid (if the bid would have closed today) although the bid doesn't actually close until August 7. However based on previous bids there will be only minor changes to these numbers.

I have listed each equipment, base and status based on what seniority would hold at the 25th percentile, 50th percentile, 75th percentile and the bottom bidder in terms of system seniority number and date of hire at Continental. Due to the very complicated seniority list mergers between Continental and Texas International, New York Air, People Express, Frontier and an extremely complicated flow through agreement with Continental Express (ended prior to current hiring spree from 6/05 to present) I have attempted to convert (if possible) to a CAL date of hire or used the other merged into airline date of hire with a note.

The following was very time consuming and difficult to do via a bid graph with many interpolations so mistakes are possible. However for the FO positions especially those hired after 6/05 are accurate.


CAPTAIN

IAH 777
25% #70 DOH 10/77
50% #190 DOH 10/78
75% # 359 DOH 11/83
100% #429 DOH 12/83

NYC 777
25% #240 DOH 4/79
50% #492 DOH 12/83
75% #752 DOH 5/84
100% #1270 DOH 3/86 New York Air

IAH 757/767
25% #359 DOH 11/83
50% #675 DOH 4/84
75% #1190 DOH 5/84 People Express
100% #1752 DOH 6/87

NYC 757/767
25% #611 DOH 2/84
50% #1340 DOH 1/86
75% #1965 DOH 12/87
100% 3206 DOH 8/98

IAH B737
25% #1037 DOH 6/85
50% #1801 DOH 7/87
75% #2550 DOH 8/90 CALEXP
100% #3523 DOH 9/00

GUM 737
25% #630 DOH 3/84
50% #1479 DOH 7/86 People Express
75% #1980 DOH 1/88
100% #2865 DOH 1/98

CLE 737
25% 1100 10/85 New York Air
50% 1520 3/87
75% 2129 3/87
100% 3108 6/98

EWR B737
25% 1450 6/86 People Express
50% 2450 1/90 CALEXP
75% 3225 8/98
100% 3947 8/30/2005

FIRST OFFICER

IAH 777
25% 800 7/83 People Express
50% 1700 6/87
75% 2450 1/90 CALEXP
100% 3044 4/98

EWR 777
25% 2293 6/90
50% 2950 2/98
75% 3600 3/01
100% 4719 2/07

IAH 757/767
25% 2390 9/89 CALEXP
50% 3250 9/98
75% 4002 9/05
100% To Be Hired

NYC 757/767
25% 3225 8/98
50% 4170 1/06
75% 4800 3/07
100% To Be Hired

IAH 737
25% 3536 1/01
50% 4315 3/06
75% 4750 2/07
100% To Be Hired

NYC 737
25% 4002 9/05
50% 4737 2/07
75% To Be Hired
100% To Be Hired

CLE 737
25% 3250 9/98
50% 3729 4/05
75% 4480 10/06
100% To Be Hired

GUM 737
25% 3225 8/98
50% 3900 7/05
75% 4526 11/06
100% To Be Hired

Look at that EWR 737. 2 years to Capt. This should continue for quite a while!! What a pay raise!!;)

No. Three years. Yes, still very fast, granted. No right to complain. Remember though, that person will be one of the last to be trained, most likely next summer. The bid is the picture as of 8/1/2008, not today.

Not necessarily. Training for this bid could begin as soon as October. Under the current contract with bidding for training classes many decide to train as late as possible, some try to play the game and not train until the next bid is out to give them an out option. Many decide to wait until many below them are trained as to not be to junior when they finish training.

Anything is possible but I believe many will be trained sooner rather than later. Also safe bet many will train in Nov and Dec because of the holidays. If you are junior no guarantees you could be involuntarily assigned to training in relative short order.

Ok. That makes sense. Interesting... I just assumed that training would generally occur in seniority order because the desire for the pay increase would be the driving factor overall.

This is exactly the kind of statement that management loves. I got news for you. Making CA in two years and going from FO to CA is NOT, REPEAT, NOT a payraise.

I have alot to complain about. Our contract and the pay rates suck. You guys are happy that we have 2-3 yr pilots holding CA but I see the underlining problem with our contract that we have 23 yr. FOs and 2-3 year CAs on this bid. I've got 17 yrs and am bidding out of the CA seat on this bid to the B777 FO seat just to have at least some resemblance of QOL. So enjoy that big fat pay raise and be sure and vote yes for what-ever the company shoves down our throats in 2009. Sorry, you don't get it.

I agree......I have 20 yrs. with CAL. Enjoy being a JUNIOR Captain boys. When the (pinch me I'm a Captain wears off) you will realize the mistake you made.

I'm confused with your numbers for IAH 756 FO. According to the bid, there are 0 vacancies for this position. How would new-hires be awarded this position if current CAL pilots can't hold it.
I'm still pretty new, so forgive my ignorance of how all this works.

Why do think they hired all those 23yr old FO's?

What you are referring too is secondary vacancies. The bid that was posted is the starting point. Yes there were no IAH 756 FO vacancies on the bid. However as people move around to fill the 176 CA Vacancies and the 276 FO vacancies secondary vacancies (like what will be created on the IAH B756 FO) will be created.

The following is a post of mine under the same thread I posted on flight info. I reposted here for those that are interested.

Mike,

I agree with your frustrations on how their (manpower planning) math never equals are basic math skills. I have been studying these bids for twenty years and I would have no hair left if I pulled some out every time I tried compare the numbers on the current bid from the previous bid.

This is how manpower planning (really flight operations aka Abbott) make the bid show what they want the end result to be. They just change all of the numbers, vacancies, reductions, active pilots etc. to equal what they want.

Lets look at the current numbers on this bid.

System ALL

Retirements 91
Active pilots 4196 ****
Min total pilots 4639
Max total pilots 4642
Captain Vacancies 176
First Officer Vacancies 270
Total Vacancies 446

First of all lets look at the active pilots number ****
All management pilots (including flight instructors), LTD pilots, Sick Leave, Those on FTFPL for ALPA, those projected to retire on this or previous bids but still on property and any other pilot who is double bid is NOT counted in this number.

Secondly this is where the funny math comes into place. The last bid had 392 vacancies essentially 392 pilots had to be hired. I counted them last month and I'm not going to do so again (to time consuming) but we have only hired approximately 232 pilots since the last bid was posted until this bid was posted. Leaving 160 unfilled positions from the last system bid prior to this bid. Which really means we are rebidding 160 of the 446 new positions or vacancies on this bid thus meaning this bid only has 282 new positions or vacancies. Now subtract the 91 who are going to retire and you get 191 new positions due to growth. How many new pilots on sick leave or LTD since the last bid? that also reduces the true growth on this bid.

You get my point to look at the total numbers they are just a shill for management to show what they want.

On the other hand if you look at the relative seniority of your placement in sub bases IE what the bid snap shot shows or what the real bid results will yield. The overall percentage of each pilot will be the close next year if age 60 and pilot hiring continues as projected.

I explained this already above at nausiam.

Lastly I need to re emphasize this because many don't understand. Use me as an example last bid which is effective FEB 08 had me at 247 out of 372 EWR B756 captains or 66%. August 07 staffing has me at 289/387 or 75%. It would appear we are now at about the half way point and I need to move from 289 to 247 by Feb 08 for the last bid to come to fruition.

However remember system bids double bid (or don't take into account those on LTD, management, training or those of FTFPL for the union. System staffing does. If I subtract the 25 or so in that category today that don't fly the line that takes me staffing wise down to 264 and if you look at the 15 or so who will retire above me on the EWR B756 from now through Jan 31, 2007 that will take me to number 249, subtract a few above me not already trained or advanced into their last system bid position and I am basically where I was projected to be on the last bid right now six months ahead of time.

Again nothing I said above takes away from the fact we need to negotiate a real staffing formula, system bidding section (to mirror what AA has) and other key changes.

Mike I look forward to flying with you soon. I am doing one Madrid and five Lisbon's in August. Sep have a week of vacation and I am supposed to work at the CAL ALPA puzzle palace for one week. Maybe we can fly soon. I love the airplane don't know what I was thinking about on that sh$t box the 737 for eight years and 5000 hours.

Frats,

Jayson

AGAIN FOR ALL THOSE USING THE SNAP SHOT TO ASSIST IN MAKING BID DECISIONS BY COMPARING WHAT % THE SNAP SHOT ESTIMATES YOU AT (ONE YEAR FROM NOW) WITH A RECENT REVIEW OF MONTHLY PBS RESULTS FOR THOSE ALREADY IN YOUR PROJECTED BID % TO SEE WHAT YOU CAN EXPECT SCHEDULE AND DAYS OFF WISE TO HOLD YOU NEED TO ADJUST THE FOLLOWING.

LOOK AT ALL THOSE ABOVE YOU ON STAFFING TODAY THAT ARE ON SICK LEAVE (SKLV) OR LTD (ULA) OR UNION WORK (PLA) AND SUBTRACT THAT FROM YOUR CURRENT STAFFING NUMBER. NOW RECALCULATE YOUR CURRENT REAL STAFFING PERCENTAGE. NOW WHEN YOU COMPARE YOUR REAL STARTING POINT % TO THE BID PROJECTED END POINT (NEXT AUG) YOU ARE COMPARING APPLES TO APPLES. WHEN THE BID COMES OUT LOOK AT YOUR ACTUAL NUMBER AND ADD ALL THOSE WHO ARE ON LTD ETC (THOSE DOUBLE BID ON THE SYSTEM BID)AND THAT WILL BE WHAT YOUR AUG 08 STAFFING NUMBER HOPEFULLY WILL BE (BEST CASE SCENARIO). YOU WILL NEVER ON THIS BID BE STAFFED AT YOUR SYSTEM BID AWARD NUMBER BECAUSE OF ALL THOSE NOT ACTIVLY FLYING DOUBLE BID AREN'T DOUBLE BID ARE ACTUALLY INCLUDED AND ACCOUNTED FOR ON THE MONTHLY SYSTEM STAFFING.

ALSO FOR THOSE UNAWARE YOU CAN VIEW ALL PREVIOUS PBS AWARDS FOR ALL BES (BASE EQUIPMENT AND STATUS) ON WWW.PREFBID.COM

REMEMBER THAT WONDERFUL CAL OLD ADAGE BID WHAT YOU WANT AND NOT WHAT YOU DON'T WANT.

First of all I for one I am not trying to say things are fine and dandy at CAL far from it. However the fact that we have soon to be 2-3 year captains is something to be happy about. It took me 12 years to updrade and I did it as soon as possible. We could have the best contract ever and have bids with reductions.

Now with that being said we have a POS contract and we need massive improvements in virtually every section. Care to come to work with me on the strike committee to help create the leverage required to get that great contract?

Also if we had a real staffing section, pbs section, duty rigs and work rules we would have to hire and additional 1000 pilots without one additional new airframe or pilot retirement.

Clarify your point. Going from $80,000 per year to $145,000 seems like pay raise. I may be missing your point??? Also, I don't understand why management would love hear that. Not being sarcastic....just trying to understand what you are saying..

Yes, I'd like to know too. I can hold junior 737 CA and double my pay. I might lose one day off than I get now. I'd do more legs and work harder, but not as many and as hard as the 5000 hours I did in the RJ. Why not bid 737 CA? I know the 20 year FO has it good and is topped out on the pay, but I'm just a 3 year FO. Why wait 17 more years to make what I can make now? I Have over 6000 hours of Part 121 PIC on two different aircraft, so the fourth stripe/"captain thing" is not the attraction- the money is.

Look don't listen to what anyone hear thinks. If you want it bid it if you don't than stay where you are. Just realize that as a junior reserve you are going to work hard and it will be frustrating as in future bids many will come in on top of you and it will take a while to hold a line. If you understand that and still want it go for it.

If you find out you made mistake and hate it you can down bid to 737 FO on any subsequent bid and be senior. Or you can wait two years and bid widebody FO and enjoy life.

I'm not talking about ALL those 23 yr. FOs. My point is we have 23 yr FOs that don't bid CA just like we have many 20-19-18-17-16-15-14-13-12-11 etc. year FOs while 2-3 year new hires are holding CA.

Our contract QOL is so bad no one is willing to be junior except those that think a pay raise comes from upgrading which is exactly what management wants to hear.

NEWS RELEASE: Continental Airlines is proud of the accomplishements of our employees investment and we are pleased to announce that the sacrifices made by our pilots has been rewarded with many recieving upwards of 80% pay raises over the last year.

In response to this CAL management has been rewarded with stock options totaling a combined $42 million for the sacrifices upper management made as well during the last 7 years. It is great that management and the pilots can work together to achieve harmony and we are assured that the relationship with our pilots is stronger than ever.

If the contract was worth a crap you would not be able to hold that seat as guys like me would either bid CA or not need to down bid to FO to have some QOL. If you two don't understand that then I'm wasting my breath.

Well, that's just great even our strike chairman doesn't realize that the 2-3 CAs isn't about CALs movement but the fact that our QOL is so bad our seniority list is inverted.

Hey I understand. I am just trying to say nothing is going to change until the new contract. So bid what you want. Not only shouldn't you be able to hold CA you should be able t hold 777 FO or B756 FO at 50%. New hires shouldn't be able to hold 756 FO. I get it, I agree but it is what it is for now.

Hey I was in Stivilia's face all the time during the negotiation of this POS. I tried to recall our N/C our MEC officers and encouraged my brethren to recall our IAH LEC back then. I also tried to tell any one who would listen our former ALPA Negotiating Counsel Ken Cooper (now retired) was incompetent. I was threatened with lawsuits for all of the stuff I was putting out but I didn't care. I personally made a big demonstration at the signing of the "Partnership accord" in front of Gordon Bethune, Fred Abbott and Duane Woerth. So hey I completely understand what you are saying. Go blame those who were extremely apathetic, most of the membership back then. Oh by the way I did all of this while technically in the same union capacity as I am right now. I was marginalized and basically locked of the building. I also started all of this two years before the TA of POS 02.

Why can't you understand that my upgrade would be a better QOL? I have crap now, I bid CA and get the same crap with a huge raise. Sounds like a no brainer to me. Not everyone can be senior at the same time. I'm junior anyway you look at it. I might as well be junior for more money. I took a huge pay cut to go to CAL and upgrading would more than fix that.

Otto, it still isn't a pay raise. I'm not telling you you should not upgrade. I'm saying quit stating how good things are that CAL has 2-3 yr. CAs because the fact that this is happening demonstrates how bad our contract is. And I had descent hopes for C08. Oh, well. Because if you feel this way many other jr. pilots feel the same way. Get that YES pen ready. Just like C02.

Yea, but you shouldn't support junior guys bragging how good things are at CAL on public forums that they can hold CA after ONLY being here for 2-3 years. Management knows this and realizes the junior guys just don't get it and won't be willing to rock the boat. Same as C02. You should be expalinaing how bad our contract is and that is the ONLY reason we have 2-3 yr. guys holding CA. No other reason than that. Yes, bid it and enjoy the CA pay but understand while they are getting a 100% upgrade rate it is not a pay raise. It should be even a lot more than that along with much better work rules. A pay raise is when a company pays you more than you are making today for the same staus and equipment. Not upgrading. Just like when I bid B777FO I am not taking a pay cut. The pay rates for the status and equipment have not changed.

I agree that if the slot is available bid it but quit making it sound like everything here is great because I'm going to be a CA in 3 years. It kills the effort to truly get a pay raise across the board on the next contract.

Maybe I should not worry about fighting for a pay raise in the 3-5 year CA range as these guys are obviously tickled to death right now with what they've got. I'll expect all the money to be in 10 year plus side of the pay rates.

I agree with your post about 99.9%. Cal new-hires should not be bragging about how "good" things are at CAL. If I took the upgrade @ CAL, I would be back to my pay in 2001, pre-CAL. Fortunately, I don't have to do it for the money and won't because being junior @ CAL is terrible. Being relatively senior, 50%, is bad. The disparity between being a reserve and a line-holder @ CAL is not the company's fault, it's ours. Most Union's eat their young, but @ CAL it's absolutely ab-horrible;29k/hr to fly a 777 with no health insurance. I'll be voting no for any contract negotiated by "pilots". IMHO, CAL is heads and shoulders above our competitor's, no offense as I think we should all feel that way about the company we chose. For the life of me, I can't understand why we are playing bush-league negotiations without a professional negotiator, and not the ALPA one! I don't know how many times I've heard Captains tell me "that's just the way the company is", as if we don't have any culpability in our sh!tty existence and lack of the company's respect; sprawled across exit-row seats in coach on our way from Berlin. Our plight is a direct result of that group of quasi-pilots who sold their souls and nuts to F Lorenzo. The new-hires now outnumber those guys and can probably offset the 1996 votes that Lorenzo bought '83-'85. Captains.......Please do all you can to mentor your new-hires as to the ways of the company. Remember, this is the best job most new-hires have ever had. They need your guidance. BTW, a big congrats to the NWA pilot group, especially the Captains, solidarity and balls still exist somewhere.

Then I know now you don't get it. If we had 2-3 year CAs as a result of growth, and a good contract I would agree. But having 2-3 yr. CAs now only illustrates how bad our contract truly is. Nothing about that makes me happy. The company has been successfull in inverting our seniority list.

You are full of it. Yes it is good news we have an expansion bid instead of a reduction one. You seem to have been as long or longer than me. How many times over the years have we had no vacancies, net zero or reduction bids? Oh and during those times we had even worse working conditions than we do now. Don't accuse me of being in la la land. I know what a POS contract we have. I also know if we had a real contract we would have to hire another 1000 without one additional airframe or pilot retirement.

I tell this to every new hire I fly with and every one I talk to in the crew room, wx room, layovers etc. I am ready to give up my career if we don't succeed in contract 08. Don't tell me though I can't show some optimism because of expansion. After all at the very least it is helping everyone of our pilots career expectations in the more than likely event of a merger.

I talk union and educate every pilot I fly with everyday about CAL history from Bob Six to Lorenzo to present regime, railway labor act, contract negotiating cycles, credible strike threats and how POS 02 happened and what I tried to do to prevent it. Funny I don't remember your name signed to the bottom of thousands of letters to the membership two years before the TA of contract 02 warning the membership to wake up? What about all the LEC meetings and P2P conference calls you particpated in standing up to scumbags Panerallo, Pacelli, Stivila and Muir? Where you there because I'm sorry but I don't know who you are? Oh and what committee are you volunteering for to help us get a real contract?

I am ready to give significant time with my family to work yet again for our union and pilot group. I do all above even though I am sick and tired of doing it and taking hours each trip but most captains around here complain and do nothing else. It is amazing how no one educates the new hires. I walk the walk and am prepared to make tremendous sacrifices for contract 08. What are you doing except hiding behind your handle in anonymity taking shots and being your normal negative self? Oh but according to you "I still don't get", yes I do more than you ever will!

If you're going to take shots at someone at least have the balls to sign your post!


Jayson Baron
EWR 756 CA

Since "I still don't get it" and according to you I should be educating new hires ok I will. He is one of my writings to the membership during the ratification of POS 02. Those new hires who fly with me read this and other of my efforts to wake up this pilot group before we were lied to and ratified POS 02



THE TRUTH ABOUT YOUR NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE
I am fully committed to the integrity and honesty of our union as well as those who lead it. Over the past year I have doubled my efforts to ensure our pilots are represented by a team of pilots who not only believe in you the line pilot, but are also the kind of individuals we can blindly trust to protect and enhance our careers. To that end it is the observation of many pilots including myself that the current negotiating team has lost the focus and drive to achieve the objectives of the pilots they represent.

What is written below comes from an unknown author. I believe the majority of what is written below to be accurate. I am not saying our company does not have a legitimate need for concessions. What I am saying is I believe we do not have the proper team of pilot negotiators in place to negotiate the least amount of reductions in pay, benefits and work rules to an already sub standard contract to assist the company in their current financial crisis.

Tom Stivala and our negotiators have not lived under contract 97. Tom Stivala told your MEC leaders he has received at least four job offers outside of Continental Airlines. If Tom and our negotiators move up within ALPA, Continental management, or leave the company all together, the possibility exists they will not live under contract 2002.

You deserve to know the answers to the questions below. After reading this letter if you share my uneasiness please contact your elected representatives, voice your concerns and demand answers.

Additionally you may not be aware our MEC faces an impending financial crisis. You may want to ask our leaders why the entire MEC which includes all of our Local Council Representatives are on trip loss for the month of February to staff our base crew rooms along side P2P volunteers. Why is this huge expenditure necessary when there is no tentative agreement to explain and no new information available since last month’s system wide road shows? You may want to also inquire as to why your reserve scheduling subcommittee (made up mostly of line pilots) was denied trip loss because of the expense.


Fraternally,

Jayson Baron
EWR B737 CA
[email protected]





Very Soon the Continental ALPA Negotiating Committee will craft a Tentative Agreement.

Very Soon the Continental MEC will vote on whether to send out that TA for membership ratification.




Very Soon Continental ALPA members will vote on a contract that will last 2 to 7 years. No-- It won’t be the “Contract of Your Career”. No--- It won’t be Industry Leading. Yes-- We will “Take Our Place”. That place will be determined by our Negotiating Team. Unless our 9 elected leaders-- our MEC—have the courage to make a few changes to Our Team.

The week of January 10, 2005 may well be our only opportunity to try to change the mindset of our Union’s Negotiating Committee and Union Leadership.

Some of us feel this NC Team has succumbed to negotiating Stockholm syndrome, under the constant barrage of daily bad news in the airline industry. Some of us feel this Team has grown far too close to management. Some of us feel this Team has taken care of its needs first. Some of us feel our MEC must at a minimum make several changes to this Team.

How can we trust that this Team is watching out for our careers instead of their own future?

We must ask the hard questions to determine the integrity of the individuals on this Team prior to giving them our Trust and prior to our MEC sending in this Team to “Speak for Us”, and negotiate OUR Contract.

Let’s ask for answers to the following questions before our MEC sends in this NC Team: The answers to the questions below, are merely calculated estimates. The individual answers from Stivala, Muir and Karnes or their refusal to answer, should reveal their integrity, honesty, and priorities as Union negotiators.

Q: Was one of your first negotiations with management in 2000, to change the provisions of C97 and provide the NC members with PS4 travel benefits instead of Contract 97’s PS5 travel for committee personnel?
A: Yes.

Did Captain Stivala use PS4 status for family members personal travel?
A: Yes.

How much money did Captain Stivala make as a Reserve B737 Captain in 2003 and 2004?
A: approximately $225,000. Cost to Union with expenses approximately $325,000 per year.

Q: Same for Captain Rick Muir?
A: Same Answer.




Q: Same Question for F/O Bill Karnes?
A: As a B737 Reserve F/O, with 5 years seniority,
better than $125,000. Cost to Union, almost $200,000.

Q: How many Hours has Captain Stivala flown for Continental in the past seven years since January 1998?
A: Upgraded to B737 Captain in 1998, flew @130 hours of IOE/Consolidation. IN seven years since IOE, have flown @ 150-200 hours total.

Q: How many Hours of Flight Pay Loss has Captain Stivala received in the last 7 years?
A: Approximately 8,300 Pay Hours.

Q: Same Questions for Muir and Karnes?
A: Approximately the same answers.

Q: How many days of Reserve have you spent on C97 as a junior Captain?
A: Zero

Q: How many Holidays such as Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving, July 4th, Memorial Day, Labor Day, MLK Day, President’s Day, or personal important days like, kids birthdays, wife’s birthday, anniversaries, have you flown, or been on Reserve duty, since 1998?
A: Zero

Q: Are you trained on the airplane you are being paid for:
A: No.

Q: Following the 9-11-01 system reduction bids, did you bid Guam Captain to ensure that you maximized the amount of Flight Pay Loss that you received?
A: Yes.

Q: Have you ever been trained on Air Mike or flown from the GUM domicile?
A: No.

Q: Were you unable to hold any domestic Captain position following 9-11 furloughs and therefore would have taken a pay cut like others with your system seniority?
A: Yes

Q: In 1997, when you were the IACP IAH F/O Rep, did you support President Nikolai to fire the C97 Negotiating Committee and replace them with yourself and the IAH Captain Rep?
A: Yes.




Q: When Captain Stivala was a People Express pilot, did you pay your share of the PEX Pilots merger Fund?
A: No, Paid Zero, but then again neither did Pacelli.

Q: Have you ever discussed your future at Continental or a non pilot job working with former CAL Sr. VP Mike Campbell?
A: ???

Q: Did you meet with former IAH Captain Rep Tripson to plot the recall effort against MEC Chairman Captain Pat Burke?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you and your Team of Muir and Karnes support NC Chairman Panarello’s successful effort to recall Captain Burke at the March 2002 MEC meeting?
A: Yes

Q: Did you sign a resignation letter in August 2004 effective if the MEC did not approve a FPL policy?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you suggest to IAH Captain Rep Stone in August 2004, an amendment to the FPL policy to include a “best-held” provision?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you know this would raise your pay rate to $203.79 per hour as a B737 pilot at more than 97 hours pay per month?
A: Yes.

Questions For Muir:

Q: Did you apply to be hired as the Cleveland Chief Pilot?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you interview for that management position with VP Flight Ops Fred Abbott and other managers, while you were still a member of the CAL ALPA NC?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you return to line flying following your resignation from the NC?
A: No.

Q: Did you continue to receive full time trip loss from the Union after resigning from the NC?
A: Yes.



Q: Are you partners in a private business with Steve Pacelli and Tom Stivala?
A: Yes.

Q: Have you conducted the business of your private venture while being paid as a Full Time Union Pilot since 1998?
A: Yes.

Q: Did F/O Karnes attend a real estate agent school while on Union full time trip loss?
A: Yes.

If the questions and actual answers disturb you, and if you feel they will affect your future, we suggest you contact the MEC Reps Very Soon. Demand that our MEC determine the answers to these Questions of Integrity and decide if these individuals are going to “Speak for Us” and be authorized to negotiate our new Contract.

Chairman Jay Panarello: [email protected]
Vice Chairman Mike Bowen: [email protected]
S/T Steve Pacelli: [email protected]

EWR Captain Rep. Bob Young: [email protected]
IAH Captain Rep. Bruce Stone: [email protected]
CLE Captain Rep. Jim Blackford: [email protected]
GUM Captain Rep. Dale Surdick: [email protected]
FI Rep. Captain Tom Howard: [email protected]
EWR F/O Rep. Randy Newman: [email protected]
IAH F/O Rep. Bob Shoemaker: [email protected]
CLE F/O Rep. Jeff Dickson: [email protected]
GUM F/O Rep. Steve Heckler: [email protected]

This was my attempt to wake up the pilot group as to who was leading us a year and a half before the TA of POS 02.


June 30, 2004


Jayson Baron
Newark B737 CA
[email protected]



Air Line Pilot’s Association
Continental Airlines Master Executive Council
Houston, TX 77032


Members of the Continental Airlines Master Executive Council, my name is Jayson Baron. I’m a B737 captain based in Newark.

I am writing to ask all of you to please listen to a recording of the last P2P conference call that is available on the P2P section of the CALALPA web site. I participated in this conference call and expressed significant frustration with our MEC, Negotiating Committee and Negotiating Counsel. A noteworthy point made by SPC Chairman Andy Cameron was that my frustrations and concerns were out of the purview of P2P and that I needed to make my feelings known to my elected representatives. I have spoken to both of my Newark representatives and expressed my feelings and now I am sharing them with you, CALALPA’s highest governing body. Simply put, you are losing or have already lost many of your staunchunion supporters/activists like me.

Since the above-mentioned conference call, I have received countless phone calls, e-mails, etc., from other pilots telling me that they listened to the call and wanted me to know that they agreed with my sentiments. One comment relayed by many who heard the conference call is that the message I was trying to deliver went completely over the heads of the participants on the conference call at CALALPA headquarters. What I would like to do in this message is clarify my position so hopefully when you listen to the conference call you can better understand my frustrations and appreciate my concern. I believe many who work for our union have lost sight of the line pilot’s perspective and needs.

I want to make perfectly clear that my frustrations do not stem from the fact that we are negotiating a contract in probably the worst economic environment ever in the history of airline union negotiations. I fully understand that the landscape has changed significantly and I in no way expect contract ‘02 to look anything like the pre-concessionary contracts at Delta or Northwest. However, that doesn’t mean we should just roll over and let management have their way with us.





My biggest concern is that our MEC is not representing our pilots in the same manner as our peer pilots’ unions. Our communications internally and externally are terrible and, quite frankly, embarrassing. I believe this is in large part due to our negotiating counsel, Ken Cooper, and, to a lesser extent, our negotiating committee.

One needs to look closely at last year’s America West contract negotiations that resulted in two tentative agreements being turned down by the membership, before the third tentative agreement was ratified to gain some insight into Ken Cooper’s mindset. Ken was directly involved in negotiating their first tentative agreement (rejected by nearly a three-to-one margin) before moving on to represent our MEC.

After talking with many America West pilots, I have learned that there was a significant difference in overall quality in the second and third tentative agreements as opposed to the first proposal. It is also my understanding that Ken believed America West pilots would not do any better by rejecting the agreement he helped negotiate. The America West pilots I have talked with tell me there were major improvements in the subsequent tentative agreements, and the swing in the voting margin supports this point.

I have heard some argue the America West pilots didn’t do any better in the second and third tentative agreements. “The cost of the agreements were the same and they essentially just moved around the deck chairs because ATSB restrictions made it difficult to extract more dollars,” according to some.

However, I think it’s important to point out that dollars were allocated more in line with what the membership wanted for improvements, not with what the then leadership or negotiating counsel told them they wanted. It’s also important to note that after the first tentative agreement was rejected, both the MEC officers and negotiating committee were recalled.

Since Ken Cooper became our negotiating counsel, I have noticed a distinct and growing change in our MEC officers’ and negotiating committee’s views on external communications. I see a significant change in how we deal with Continental management. While I commend you, our leadership, in establishing a dialog with our president and future CEO, I believe we must continue to pressure management via the media and other ways just as our peers at Delta, Northwest, American, United and US Airways have all done in the past and present to extract leverage and have our views heard.

Apparently Ken Cooper believes in an interest-based, non-abrasive, don’t ruffle any feathers approach to bargaining. This type of approach will fail when dealing with the likes of Mike Campbell and his negotiating team.

It’s your job to set policy and direction and make changes to personnel as required. The MEC is higher on the union structure than the negotiating committee, but from my perspective it sure looks the other way around.

The members of our negotiating committee are extremely talented and dedicated and have made huge personal sacrifices over the past four years. However, when you look at the roller coaster of ups and downs over these last four years - mostly downs - it’s totally understandable to have a negotiating committee that is battle-fatigued, especially when fed a continuous diet of doom and gloom from the very savvy and experienced management negotiating team.

It’s your job to recognize this and make appropriate changes to rectify the situation. When you listen to the conference call, listen closely to how Mike Hynes answers not only my comments but virtually every other caller’s comments. What I hear from Mike is very similar to what I and many others hear from the negotiating committee, a defensive, condescending, and somewhat arrogant tone - especially when anyone questions their actions.

At this time, I don’t believe we should recall our negotiating committee; however, I feel it would be an appropriate time to temporarily send them back to the line. We all know Continental has a staffing problem and we could certainly use the help. This would also give the negotiating committee members some perspective and a chance to experience first-hand, the reality of what our membership deals with every day. Four or more years of full-time trip loss is too much time for any union official to be away from the line. I would much rather have our negotiators return to the line than spin numbers on potential concession scenarios.

Another area of significant concern is Mike Bowen, our MEC Vice Chairman. I have only spoken to Mike on two occasions in the recent past. The first was just prior to or during the Iraq war last year and the second time was on the P2P conference call last Tuesday. Both times he acted the same - severely dejected, “battle fatigued,” or, more appropriately stated, someone who is suffering from the “Stockholm syndrome.”

For example, on the conference call Mike made statements like “the airline business will be a whole lot different (if Bush wins in November), we may not have very many current pilots flying our airplanes…In eight days Chris Lynch and I who interviewed together, started class together will be in this business eighteen years. This certainly isn’t what we signed up for at all…There are some of us questioning whether we’re going to be airline pilots ten years from now. I should have studied in school.”

These types of comments are totally unacceptable from an MEC officer.





As I stated earlier, we all know that the economic reality of the airline industry is ugly. I don’t blame the union or even the company for this situation (with the exceptions of spending money pre-9/11 like a drunken sailor, not saving for a rainy day and not hedging fuel in the current environment). Nobody could have foreseen and prepared for the cataclysmic events that have occurred on and since 9/11. In the seventeen years I have been at Continental, I can count on one hand the number of good years we have had and I suspect much of my remaining twenty-one and half years until retirement will be very challenging to say the least.

We have little or no control over the economic environment, however, I do expect, no, I demand, my union leadership do whatever possible to represent our interests with vigor and do everything legal under the sun to protect and enhance our careers no matter how difficult the economic landscape gets. This can’t be done with union leaders who have the same current mind set as some.

I think we all can agree that the future of US Airways is dismal at best. Yet, their MEC is doing everything possible to represent their pilots to the best of their abilities as long as they have pilots to represent. In the recent past they have recalled their negotiating committee and published a press release about their MEC’s no confidence vote in their former CEO David Siegel. This is a perfect example of how I expect CALALPA to act, like a union, not a social club.

As you are all aware, we have a significant staffing problem on the line this summer. To quote Mike Bowen, “You really want to know how things were last weekend? We had every chief pilot and instructor pilot flying.”

Since it’s obvious at this point no more furloughed pilots are going to be recalled this summer, I would like to make the following suggestion: In the spirit of “working together” and sharing the load, since we aren’t currently planning on negotiating the “A-list sections” we should send all non-essential union personnel currently on full-time trip loss back to the line for the summer months. Maybe our reserves that have been literally beaten up will get rolled and turned less and may actually be able to spend more time with their families.

If I wanted to think only of myself, I could keep my mouth shut about all the problems I see with our MEC. No one has more to gain with the current MEC philosophy of survive at all cost, than me. As the only captain under age forty with twenty-one and half years to go until I retire at projected seniority number one, I certainty have a lot of time to make up for any concessions or any additional gains not reached in contract ‘02 as long as the airline survives in one form or another.

However, four-hundred and thirty-five pilots and their families on furlough struggling to make ends meet and over two-thousand pilots retiring over the next ten years don’t have that luxury. So, I’m truly sorry if I have insulted or hurt anyone’s feelings by sharing my frustrations with you. All of the individuals I mentioned in this letter are very dedicated and talented union volunteers or employees of ALPA. We have to approach this contract and how we operate this union as a business and not let personal feelings or agendas interfere.

I worked very hard to help bring ALPA back to Continental. Every time I go to work I wear – with pride - my ALPA pin and ALPA watch given to me by ALPA President Duane Woerth. I don’t think we’re using the ALPA tool box to its full potential, and I don’t believe our MEC is doing everything it can to secure the best contract possible. That is why I feel obligated to speak out. I want you also to know that I plan on publishing this letter publicly so our membership can also understand my serious concerns.

In closing, I would like to remind our MEC of the following: It’s approaching three years now since four-hundred and thirty-five of our pilots and their families have been on furlough, flow-back, or some form of leave of absence. Many of them are extremely frustrated and feel they have been forgotten by our union and our active membership. I am amazed to hear that some of our pilots don’t realize or care that we still have pilots on furlough.

Please do everything you can to reach out to these brothers and sisters. We need to continue to do everything legally available to educate the remaining pilots about the effect of bidding all vacation and what effect the picking up of open-time has on the staffing needs of our airline.

Again I urge you to please take the time to listen to P2P conference call on the CALALPA web site. You will hear first hand many of the points I expressed in this letter.

Fraternally,



Jayson Baron




cc: Negotiating Committee

I know what you've written and I have copies of everything you just posted. You are the one person I never thought I'd here them state that they are happy we have 2-3 year CAs. It ****es me off because it tells me what kind of POS contract we have.

A legacy airline with 5000 pilots should not have 82% seniority holding CA narrowbody or 63% holding 757-767 CA slots. It should be more like 55% and 40% respectively.

Ask those with FedEx, UPS or SWA what the break point for holding CA slots are relative to percentage of seniority within their pilot groups and I will bet you your strike chairman postion we have the highest CA at 82% than any other legacy. That doesn't make me happy. Again, our seniority is inverted.

And as far as the expansion. WE ARE FUNDING THAT on our OWN BACKS. And that doersn't make me happy either.

How about guys from real airlines here chime in and give us your opinion. Am I thinking wrong here?

You are correct our contract sucks we wouldn't have 1rst year 757 and 777 Fo's or 3 year 737 CA's if it wasn't for pos 02. It is an indication of how bad our contract and working conditions have falllen no doubt I agree 100%. Our expansion is far below what it should be to correctly staff our airline under duty rigs, work rules, staffing formula etc. A widebody FO should be far more senior than junior CA no arguments here.

The fact remains nothing is going to change until we fight for a new contract. I am ready to fight to the bitter end up for a real contract, we are on the same page.

Where we disagree is we are where we are and unfortunately we can not change it until the new contract. So I can be happy someone makes captain in two years. In my case I worked for cal with worse working conditions and pay then today and it took me 12 years to upgrade. So it could be worse.

That in no way is a cop out or justifing where we are today. By the way UAL had 3 year 737 CA's with a contact far better to ours today in the late 90's

Is it cause for celebration hell no! But if someone can upgrade under our POS instead of being a FO with a terrible life style then more power to them and I am happy for them.

I am in Madrid right now. I spent three hours walking around and eating dinner educating the FO and IRO on our history, contract 02 debacle and where we want to go. Ask them I am in no justifing what we have just the opposite. There response why is the first I have heard all of this history from a CAL captain.

It is a huge pay raise. When my paycheck doubles; it's a raise.

I never said how good things are at CAL because of the quick upgrades, until now. It is good. I've never had it so good. It's all relative. CAL with a POS'02 is better than what I had before coming here. I came after the vote, but I have never voted yes on ANY contract (three) that was put before me. Plus, I served on the strike and comm. committees in the past. I'm looking forward to voting no again. I vote "no" unless I love everything in the whole contract- whether it affects me directly or not.

The Senior FO's don't want CA because it sucks compared to the past. I understand that, but understand I/We were not here in the past. It's not worse, but better than what we had before. Perspective.

I know I'll end up voting "no" as usual, so don't tell me how I'll vote. I've fought for contracts before and I'll do it again. The new people at CAL can only help, since CAL pilots have never had a good contract compared to the rest of the industry. I can bid CA and still fight for a good contract. Should I quit or refuse to upgrade? It's the same contract no matter what seat or aircraft I'm in, so why make a big deal about it?

I look forward to walking with you on the informational picketing and/or strike picketing.

Here is another reason why I am happy we are going to have three year captains. Industry standard FO pay I believe is between 65 and 70 percent of same longevity captain for pay category. For contract 02 a second year FO is about 41 percent of second year captain and it slowly ramps up to normal standard percentages between five and seven years longevity. This is totally unacceptable!

I asked in public in front of many witnesses why we did this to our new hires including why they negotiated no insurance for new hires to our contract 02 negotiating committee chairman at the time and today a manager in Human Resources for Continental Airlines. His answer and I quote "why do I care about pilots who don't work here yet?"

We totally f@$ked over our new hires with contract 02 and they almost double their pay with an upgrade vs a measly pay raise as a 777 FO. So yeah I am very happy for them as we let them down big time!

Hey I'll say this publicly so you can remind me in the future. I came to work here at 21 in 1987 and I have spent almost half my life working for this company. I have (hopefully) at least 18 1/2 years left and I retire number 1 on our list. If we aren't even remotely successful in contract 08 and I mean a contract not with just good pay rates but everything else required of a contract that provides quality of life at home and at work. I will get some more time on the 756 and then the 777 and will seriously try to get a contact job overseas or just plain retire as soon as I can and hopefully that will be way before 50.