Pilot showdown looms for DAL
 

Posted on Sun, Nov. 13, 2005

Pilot showdown looms for bankrupt Delta

HARRY R. WEBER
Associated Press

ATLANTA - A pivotal week is ahead for Delta Air Lines Inc. The struggling carrier may release more details about its finances in a regulatory filing Monday, its pilots plan a rally Tuesday to defend their contract and a bankruptcy hearing is set for Wednesday to discuss whether to void that contract and allow the company to impose deep pay and benefit cuts.

There's a lot at stake as the pilots have raise the prospect of a strike if the court rejects their contract. Whether they are able to do so legally, however, is a matter open for question.

"I tend to think they probably are," said William Rochelle, a bankruptcy lawyer in New York who represents a major creditor in the Delta case. "If not, I think there's a new form of slavery in the United States."

At Wednesday's hearing in New York, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Prudence Carter Beatty is expected to hear arguments from lawyers for Delta and the Air Line Pilots Association, the union that represents the Atlanta-based company's 6,000 pilots.

The judge could decide immediately on the company's request to void the pilot contract, though most people connected to the case believe she will give the sides up to 30 more days to reach an agreement before deciding on her own.

The company wants $325 million in new concessions from its pilots, which would include a 19.5 percent pay cut. The pilots union has proposed $90.7 million in average annual concessions over four years, which would include a 9 percent pay cut effective Dec. 1 to last for seven months, followed by 7 percent for six months, then 5 percent thereafter.

The cuts would be on top of $1 billion in annual concessions the pilots agreed to in a five-year deal reached in 2004. That deal included a 32.5 percent pay cut.

Delta pilots currently earn an average of $169,393 a year, according to a company bankruptcy court filing. The document says the figure is a projection based on year-to-date actual earnings by people employed throughout last year and up to Sept. 16 of this year. It does not include proposed pilot pay rate reductions. Junior pilots make considerably less, while senior pilots in some cases make more. The type of aircraft a pilot flies also is a factor in the pay scale.

The company doesn't want a strike, and the pilots have made clear they don't want a judge throwing out their contract. But the pilots have pointed to their past sacrifices and argued that the new cuts they are offering are more than enough to help Delta become profitable again and compete with low-cost rivals.

If the decision gets to the judge, it's not a given how she would rule, though she indicated in an unrelated Delta bankruptcy hearing Thursday that she believes Delta's pilots are overpaid.

"The only people that make more money than Delta's pilots are you," Beatty told lawyers and company executives in the courtroom.

But Beatty also questioned the merits of Delta's business plan, specifically its decision to expand its international flights. "I don't think a business plan is one you just put down on paper," the judge said.

So, what will happen?

"That's a hard one," Rochelle said. "So far, the track record shows in the overwhelming number of cases the two sides agree without the court imposing new terms of employment. If you're a betting man, you follow the odds."

One thing that is clear is the pilots, the only major unionized group at Delta, have promised to fight to protect their contract. On the day before the bankruptcy hearing, the union has scheduled a rally at a suburban Atlanta convention center. Union officials are encouraging as many members and their spouses as possible to attend.

The airline's big week starts with the release of its quarterly report to the Securities and Exchange Commission. In the report, Delta could release more details about its financial condition.

The company said it delayed the filing until then in part because since its Sept. 14 bankruptcy petition it has been engaged in discussions with creditors, financial institutions, its employees and others regarding issues related to the Chapter 11 case.

Delta, the nation's third-largest carrier, has recorded losses of more than $11 billion since January 2001 and over that period has announced that it would cut up to 33,000 jobs. Its loss in the third quarter, reported Thursday, was $1.13 billion.

---

Judge like the rest of the world
 

This judge's response that Delta pilots are overpaid is a good notion of the public perspective on "rich pilots". We need to better inform the public of what it takes to become a pilot and then to keep the certificate through the checks and medicals. Too many people see us as only button pushers with nothing to worry about but our money, until something doesn't go right then they are glad we are paid and trained to sit up there. I really think if they, the public, knew this they wouldn't see our pay as excessive, but perhaps as being too low. Knowledge is power

DogPilot
 

DP,

Man I don't know what kind of world that you live in but when a CRJ Captain and FO together earn a little more than a third of what an "average" Delta pilot makes, then there is something very wrong with that picture. Even an average JetBlue pilot makes less than half of what an "average" Delta pilot earns. This is just a normal market adjustment back down to reality. Good luck getting anyone to feel sorry for our friends at DAL. We are all in this together but what else do they realistically expect?? $169,393 a year ????? Those days are going going gone !!!


SkyHigh

...........

Skyhigh, you mean there is a "Gravy Train" that has been going on for some time, that is finally pulling into the station?

757 Dude
 

757ER,

What I mean it that the "Gravey Train" is gone.

SkyHigh

I wonder how they came up with that number. A 767 captain makes about $178k/year after the Dec 04 paycut. A MD88 f/o makes about $105k.

From looking at the court brief, it looks like they are also including the 2004 earnings, which obviously inflates the numbers. This is misleading at best, but is most likely intention deception. Even if overtime pay is included in their calculations, I don't see how we could be averaging $169k.

Weighted Average
 

Since most of the pilots that are left at DAL are primarily senior perhaps the numbers are weighted upwards. In any case all of those numbers are shockingly high compaired to others in the industry. Most people would not understand why a DAL FO needs $ 105,000.

SkyHigh

...........

Clarify Please
 

Sue,

You will have to try again to get your message across. Who are you directing it too? What are you trying to ask?

SkyHigh

The number quoted is very misleading and most likely includes the 40% add on for benefits, retirement, medical, sick leave, etc. and as CVG767A said probably is old information and skewed to reflect overtime and who knows what else. The company is trying to get the judge and everone else to think the pilots are overpaid and not worth it. Apprently they may be succeeding by the comments in the press. And I am a retired DL pilot and its a tragedy what is going on there right now. It appears to be a race to the bottom of the pay scale for all of the legacies. IMHO

SkyHigh you are being manipulated just like DAL is trying to do to the public. THose numbers ($169,000) are put out by the company. Which figures do you think they used? They picked random dates targeting the times that the most senior DAL pilots were preparing to retire and flying overtime. They included the pilots who were getting $1mil exit bonuses and gave cost numbers for health care and vacation time.
If you believe the company numbers then you are seeing only half the picture.

For what it's worth, I'll make about $80,000 as a M88 F/O in his sixth year at Delta. I'm on my way to the Pilot Rally in Atlanta. I'd like to keep my pay and benefits in the area of where they are right now....... maybe we will strike, maybe we won't, but someone needs to draw a line in the sand for the entire industry.... not just ourselves as individuals. I hope everyone will be doing better in the years to come, or it just won't be worth the effort. I still Love the flying, but as a mentor of mine once said, "if you don't value yourself, no one else will". Wish us luck! Tough week ahead. Tomcat

DAL M88B
SLC

bangar
 

Bangar,

I am simply responding to a refrence made by a privious post to the reported $169,000 "average" DAL pilot wage. I agree it must be less.

SKyHigh

Hey Tomcat- Sorry to overstate your earnings. I was looking only at the year twelve payscale. I'm with you though- while I'm willing to help the company through bankruptcy, they are clearly overreaching here. I think that they see a historic opportunity lower pilot costs. They will try- it's their job.

What defies logic is their expecting us to believe that the $234 million difference in our table positions is the difference between Delta thriving and surviving.

CVG767A,

I would hope your MEC carefully studies the UAL chapter 11 scenario. There are many lessons to be learned. Many lessons.

You are quite correct that the company will attempt to grab every single thing they possibly can, as chapter 11 gives them a huge hammer .... and they'll use it to their advantage as much as possible.

Also I would certainly recommend to your MEC to consider using an independant and outside consulting advisor or firm that hasn't been previously used in addition to any that you currently have or you've used in the past.

Get someone that has not been involved for a fresh outlook and opinion. Finding that special someone or firm is another matter, however.

Good luck, I think you'll need it. :)

I think quite a bit is happening in concert with MECs of other BK and post-BK airlines. Our MEC is trying to determine what has and hasn't worked for them. I think that we have some good guys at the MEC (and our LEC guys are awesome), but that may not be enough. We don't have an awful lot of leverage in these negotiations.

Yea you are. Sorry there. It just chaps me when I see this propoganda from the company. This perception that airline pilots work 10 days a month and earn $200K is just hurting us. Judge Beatty seems to share this illusion with 99% of the population.

CVG767A,

Didn't mean to sound like a "know it all", and apologize if that's the way my prior message came across.

The ugly reality is that this nation needs at least one big chunk of capacity to go away. After that, the rest should recover fine.
I wouldn't wish on anyone that they have to be designated the sacrificial lambs but if the Delta guys are willing to sacrifice themselves, I am willing to let them.

fireman- no offense taken, and all input always welcome

Why are some of you happy that Delta will take a 32% pay cut? The whole idea is that we make more money, not less. We have taken the brunt of poor management decisions and our (collective as airline pilot's) pay has decreased in terms of real dollars ever since deregulation.

Meanwhile the average compensation of executives, doctors, judges and lawyers has soared, never mind the obscene bonuses paid to Wall Street leeches that have had management rape pension funds and pay rates to pay for stock buybacks and ill advised aquisitions. Northwest is the best example of this. An airline that had the best balance sheet, most planes paid for, goes CH 11 in heavy debt due in a major way to Chechi and company selling assets to finance their takover.

Look around you. $200,000 per year is dick these days. In Phoenix that gets you the ability to buy a 2000 sq ft house. Not much compared to what it used to.

We should be outraged at the failure of our union to uphold the terms of our contracts. Concessions should never be imposed by a judge who has already shown she is out of touch with reality.

Good Luck DAL Pilots, Someone has to draw the line in the sand. I just found out my 23.9% pay cut starts tomorrow. Ouch! I think the management at Delta & Northwest are overreaching. I feel your pain.

Hate to tell you this but I know one of your international captains and he works on average 5 days a month and makes well over $200k. I feel for you Delta guys but instead of worrying about pay cuts, you ought to be glad you have a job. From what I am hearing, that may be gone soon also. Face facts here. Your Company is failing. FAILING. It is Bankrupt. I would rather you take a pay cut than have my tax money bail your ass out. That's life. Deal with it.

I don't think so. There's no way even the sharpest contract sharpshooter can get paid so much for so little work. In fact, under the latest contract, there's no way to put in so few days of work, regardless of pay. If your friend really exists, either he's lying to you or you're lying to us.

CVG767A,

One of them has to be an airline analyst.

Even under the best as far as time off, I worked two six day trips to the Orient for a total of twelve in a given month, meaning 18 days off. That only lasted about 10 months for me as they pulled the airplane (747) out of the crew base and I went back to the 777 which gave me much less time off because of where it flew.

Of course for at least one full day after coming home from these Orient flights I wouldn't use power tools or write checks as I was so wiped out. :)

I'm with you, fireman. Our int'l guys typically fly two six-day trips, and it seems like they need a couple of days to recover from each. Of course, this is trans-Atlantic, which I'd guess is less taxing than trans-Pacific flying. On the domestic side, we fly a few more days, but it's a little easier on the body. The pay is the same for domestic and international.

That 777 must have been nice to fly.

Bad news for Delta
 

CVG767A,

The NY to Orient flights were brutal for me. JFK-HKG-JFK non-stops were scheduled 15:55.

NY to Europe were just long enough.

The 777 was my favorite airplane, by far. Have about 1,800 hours on it.

I look forward to the 777, but I don't know if I'll ever see it. We have only 7 or 8 of them, so you need a two digit seniority number to hold a decent schedule on it. I'm about ready to try trans-Atlantic, though; Twenty-four hours in Moscow or Milan is sounding better than fourteen hours in L.A.

Probably 90% of my European flights were to London. Great city.

The all nighters do make you tired, but it's not all that bad. Everyone finds and settles into their own little routine. Would loved to have done Moscow! :)

I'm not a pilot, but as a Million Mile Medallion level frequent flyer, I've spent my time at the airport. I have had overwhemingly good service from DAL for the most part, but the recent economy and management input have certainly put their stamps on what the frontline personnel (ticket agent, FA, and cockpit crew) can do in the way of service.

I hope for the best for those pilots who are considering a strike. I suspect they are all somewhat torn about doing it. I suppose, if one is pushed to the limit, one may make the leap and suffer the outcome, come what may.

Might it be better to suck it up (for now) and try to beat the competition (in our capitalist fashion) and let them go under, than to stand on principle (even if it is right), strike, and possibly go out? Or has that time passed by?

I'm not there, I've not seen my pay cut while management deftly packs golden parachutes, so I don't know- and I can't and wouldn't judge. But I do worry a strike will not bode well for the airline.

Respectfully submitted. And no, I'm not a journalist.

You are obviously naive. A reserve guy might work 5 days a month but not all months. Some months he most likely works more. Also, reserve is no picnic. It is not easy to be on a short leash, unable to plan doctors and other appointments etc. The days of high income/little work are long gone.

Management, sure does stick OUT on this site!

If YOU DUMB ASS did not go out and WASTE THE DAL CASH RESERVES on 100s of RJs that burn MORE FUEL/SEAT than a 727 and CANNOT carry any Cargo to FEED your HUBS, THE DELTA PILOTS WOULD NOT BE IN THIS POSITION!

Can you say "PURCHASE CAPACITY AGREEMENTS" THAT COST SHIFT RJ OPS TO THE MAINLINE FOR A 8-10% PAPER PROFIT MARGIN!

ITS JUST A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE SOMEONE IS GOING TO JAIL!

THE MAINLINE PILOTS OF THE US ARE SICK OF SOME OF YOU DUMB ASS MIS-MANAGERS OF OUR AIRLINES!

IF WE F$$KING FLEW AIRPLANES LIKE MANY OF YOU MANAGE AIRLINES, WE WOULD HAVE A CRASH/MONTH!

That's life. Deal with it

SWA, why would you post that?

AND THIS PILOT IS ON CALL 20 DAYS/MONTH!

And does NOT HAVE CONTROL OVER THAT!

MORE MIS-MANAGEMENT!

Someone sent me this link via email and was shocked at first until I got past the headline and saw it was a spoof. Should be a peice for SNL. No offense was intended by it I just thought it was hysterically absurd.

OldAg84- Yours was a well thought out post and deserves a well thought out reply. I'll do my best.

I don't want to strike, and turn upside down the lives of our passengers and fellow employees, but I may have to vote yes when the time comes. Delta management is asking for far more than they need from us, and they are doing it simply because this is a historic opportunity to do so. They gave us an arbitrary requirement of $325 million in concessions, then gave us a proposal worth nearly double that, when our analysis shows that they need only a fraction of the $325 million. (Our financial analysts have generally been more accurate than Delta's, going back as far as the Western merger.) In addition, they maintain the fiction that they are going try to save our pensions, when in reality, they are just saving that punch in the gut for later.

Like blackmailers, these guys will keep coming back for more, simply because they think they can get it. I think its time to put them against the wall and tell them we're not paying anymore. Don't get me wrong- I'm willing to give them what they need; I'm just not willing to give them whatever they want. At some point, they have to start managing this airline, and fix the yield side of the equation. I hope that their tentative steps in this direction are not too little, too late.

For me personally, I am willing to walk away from Delta and aviation, after more than twenty years in this field. Although I've reached my career goal of becoming a 767 captain, I'm tired of being at the mercy of a bunch of MBA's who have no airline experience, but a bunch of novel ideas. I've already started working on my next career. I may not make as much money (initially), but at least my success or failure will be driven by my ability and efforts.

I hope this helps. As a disclaimer, I am not a union rep, nor a hard-line rabble rouser. I think I represent the average pilot, albeit with more to lose than most.

CVG767A- thanks for the reply. I can only imagine the general frustration and angst level. Clearly it is high when reasonable people are considering and/or willing to potentially fall on their sword and walk away from a lifetime career investment.

Honestly, I've looked at the pay rates on this site and I have to think the money, for the most part, is not that phenomenal. Don't get me wrong, $100-150K as a mainline pilot is not chump change either, it's a decent living. But for the responsibility, career threatening impacts (drag a wingtip into another A/C, get sick, fail your medical, etc.) and the requirement to put up with being yanked around some, it doesn't seem overly lucrative either. Most pilots I've met are bright, energitic types who would do well anywhere. As I'm sure you will. But they must be asking themselves- "how much do I love to fly?"

Either way, good luck- with DAL or without DAL. I've just started my own small company (a sales organization/mfrs. representative) and hope to go it alone- and ironically, it's for a lot of the same reasons you are.

OldAg84- Thanks for taking the time to understand our situation. Stick around- the next 3 or 4 months are going to be pretty interesting.

Best of luck with your new company!