Southwest pilots to "fly more"
 

Southwest pilots to fly more

DALLAS (AP) — Pilots at Southwest Airlines will be flying 1-1/2 more hours each month after the pilot's union and the Dallas-based carrier struck an agreement, a newspaper reports.

That would save Southwest about $4 million annually, because the discounter won't need to hire as many pilots as it expands its schedule about 10% a year, the Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association said.

Carl Kuwitzky, a vice president for the union, said in an interview Wednesday with The Dallas Morning News that the union has been improving its partnership with Southwest.

"Our pilots have no problem working hard," he said.

Southwest spokesman Ed Stewart acknowledged the agreement, which has not been publicly announced. He declined to comment further because the carrier typically doesn't discuss its labor relations.

The airline's 4,700 pilots had about 67 hours of actual flying time a month before the latest agreement, reached Nov. 6, goes into effect.

Southwest pilots used to average about 70 hours a month a decade ago, the carrier's union officials say. But as the pilots have gained seniority, they've also earned more vacation.

After Southwest asked the union for the extra productivity, the two sides came to terms in a side letter separate from their current contract, the newspaper reports.

The two sides are set to begin formal talks next year on their contract, which can be changed starting Sept. 1.

This comes at a time when pilots at American Airlines are considering their options for improving productivity.

The Allied Pilots Association, representing 12,000 American pilots, is holding meetings with members this month to present research that identifies the productivity gaps between the world's largest carrier and its competitors.

Though the APA board has authorized its negotiating committee to begin dealing with the airline, no talks are underway.

The average number of hours that pilots at American Airlines Inc. produce per month is in the mid-40s.

Forward-thinking Southwest demonstrates again why they're the envy of the industry. Would such a preemptive concession have ever happened at a legacy carrier who was profitable?

And heck, Southwest pilots work their tails off already.

Yeah, this is great news :rolleyes: The American pilot can now work more hours and have less vacation so that the American consumer can enjoy low air fares, how wondeful and forward thinking of the SWA pilots :mad: ( the barf icon would have worked better here ).

TP

SWA pilots to work more block hours
 

Typhoon--

We're not getting less vacation. Notice that we're working more block hours not more days. I'd rather work more block hours than longer duty days. Here's some examples of what the lines look like for January in one of our western bases. I converted pay from TFP to hours of pay.

20 days off, 78 hours block, 81 hours of pay (6 lines)
19 days off, 79 hours block, 82 hours of pay (82 lines)
18 days off, 84 hours block, 86 hours of pay (130 lines)
17 days off, 88 hours block, 92 hours of pay (88 lines)
16 days off, 90 hours block, 94 hours of pay (70 lines)
The rest are reserve lines with 15 days off and 79.6 hours of pay (90 TFP).

Yes, LOTS of block hours. Of course I'd rather fly one 3 day trip every 90 days like everyone else but that just doesn't seem to be in the cards anymore. We work hard but they pay us pretty well in return.

Respectfully,
Sr. Barco

Agree TP - I wonder how many SW pilots will drop dead on final if they up the retirement age to 65??? They just don't seem to get it.............

Southwest pilots don't get it?
 

What don't Southwest pilots "get"? I guess I don't get it either then. Can you explain please? Thanks!

S.B.

What they might "get"- is to keep their seats because they'll still be in the airline business;)

Drop dead on final from a career of flying 10-15 day per month? Even at 65 years old, that's a pretty weak argument. What SWA and SWAPA have done is make the flying productive and efficient for the pilots.

Personally, I see it as a good deal for both the company and the pilots.

By agreeing to these new work rules, you raise the productivity bar at your airline and across the industry - at the expense of quality of life, management expectations for future contracts, pressure on other carriers to beat the new benchmark, etc.

By your call sign, I assume you are an FO, thus likely in the earlier part of your career (which I hope is a long one). The toll this job will eventually take on your body is tremendous and will accelerate as you get older. I'm all for keeping a company healthy and viable - you have some excellent management there at SW and have dodged a few bullets - the biggest obviously is the fuel crisis that all of your competitors have endured but your management had the foresight to avoid. But your cost advantage won't last forever - it cannot. A 777 captain at american now makes much less than your 737 captain yet he is responsible for a butt-load more lives and a heck of a lot more expensive airplane. Ask a DAL guy what can happen when you think you have it made. In less than one year - top of the industry to BK. Yes management can make a big difference, but beware of what you ask for. I'm afraid $190/hr 737 captains will be a ripe target for your management team for your next contract when those fuel hedges have gone away and you are competing on a level (cost) playing field. An AMR 777 Captain carries 320 pax for $170 (ish)/hr a SW Captain carries 150 for $190/hr - -do the math - and don't say you fly more hours. You guys really have no where to go efficiency-wise. FAR's are FAR's. So what's left for management to attack in your next contract? Payrates. All mature companies are facing the same problems - don't think SW won't. My dentist just turned 50 and he said he is cutting back his days to 3 1/2 a week to enjoy his hard earned time off- why can't airline pilots think along those lines??? No, we just agree to work more and have a happy and financially secure widow

Best of luck to you in your career - stay healthy and happy

Little old Southwest is ruining the industry!
 

Cutnrun--

I agree with many of your points. Yes, I'm relatively new to this career. I have a little over 12 years of flying for cargo, commuter, and now major airlines. What you don't know about SWA is that it is VERY easy to give away captain flying. I fly with senior guys all of the time and most of them are not flying 80 block hours a month. Not even close. It is very proprietary at SWA. You can give away to zero block hours or pick up to 100 block hours pretty easily. Trust me I don't want to fly 80+ block hours when I'm 50+ years old.

As far as agreeing to crappy work rules it could be said that you guys are really dragging down the industry. Why did you agree to work for $170/hour? Why do you have crummy rigs etc? I could easily say that your contract is jeapordizing mine. Come on, in the end management forces it on you and you know that. Big unions don't have the power anymore.

You're right, $190/hour might not be sustainable for us. I know this is a cyclical business and I budget accordingly.

"A 777 captain at american now makes much less than your 737 captain yet he is responsible for a butt-load more lives and a heck of a lot more expensive airplane."

Here's where you need to do some math. You might fly 320 pax in one day on one long leg in a 9-10 hour duty day. Follow that by a 24 hour layover and 320 pax home. That's 640 pax in 3 days. I flew 548 pax in one 9 hour duty day last week. I then flew 600 pax the next day (6 legs,100+ pax per leg) and about 400 pax on day three. That's 1548 pax in three days vs. your 640. Obviously fares have a major role here but how much revenue did you generate in three days vs.me?

And for your dentist, the poor guy has to work 3 1/2 days per week? I haven't worked over 3 days in a week in years! LOL!

Take care, respectfully,

S.B

You might want to take a closer look at UAL's contract before you make such a statement. They took a huge hit, obviously resulting from the pressure of chapter 11. :eek:

I still stand by my statement- if pilot groups keep allowing the industry (management...)to keep raising that productivity bar the only thing left to attack will be payrates. Those fuel hedges won't last forever.

As far as United is concerned, their fate was sealed both by bad management and a pension liability - the latter being yet another bullet that SW has dodged because they don't have a traditional pension. Well UAL, USAir, and soon, DAL won't be burdened either. Do the math in this race to the bottom

737
 

I think a 737 pilot should earn more than a 777 guy. Sure a 777 guy has more at risk for one leg a day. The 737 guy at SWA has smaller groups of people but has 6 legs, so if you add it up the 737 has more pax in a day than does a 777.

SkyHigh

Who said a 777 only flies one leg a day? DAL flies 777's to MCO and back to ATL all the time. Also, why wouldn't you factor in how LONG a crew is responsible for those 350 pax? A one hr leg with 100 people vs a 12 hr leg with 350? 6 legs/ 6 hrs as opposed to the 12 hrs? More math....There are several ways to look at this productivity thing

Oh yeah, I forgot about those 7+ leg a day commuter pilots - should they be paid more than SW guys? - a full 70 seat rj could just about match a 737 if enough legs are flown

Productivity
 

Cutnrun--

You're right, it is very dificult to quantify the productivity aspect. In the end I guess you and I are just passengers on the bus racing to the bottom. Enjoy flying that giant airplane of yours. That thing sure is nice!

Respectfully,

S.B.

Productivity bad? wtfo?
 

Cut,
Whats wrong with productivity? If I could get 80+ hours in 10 days and have 20 days off per month I'd be in heaven!

Why work 15-20 days to get 80 hours when you can do it in 10? Unless you like being away from home, hate your wife and kids, got a girl on the side, like eating airport food, sleeping in hotels, then go for it. If you like work rules that pay you for not flying (rig) that is great, but it hurts the company and thus your security and profit sharing sharing.

It is PRODUCTIVITY that gives you max days off for the same hours flown. Better productivity for the pilot group means more days off, a small decrease in the needed pilots to fly the operations, which means less cost, which means more profit, which means more profit sharing and job security. And don't worry about the small decrease in pilots. The way SWA is hiring, a small decrease in the total hiring would be a drop in the bucket.

I wouldn't call it a race. UAL, DAL, USAir, etc are racing to the bottom, but SWA is still move forward and racing to the top. You can't win a race when you are in reverse.

Just my opinion.....

FNG

FNG, That pretty much sums it up! Nicely said.

SWAPA had an analyst come in and do a comparison to what we do vs. other airlines. The big # that jumped out at me was SWA pilots average 19300 pax per pilot vs. 11750 for the rest of the industry.

I'll end my part of this debate with a last comment. I see an almost never ending attack on this profession. One that will not cease until a pilot in India makes near what a pilot in Atlanta makes. SW is on the top now but it's just a matter of time before they're squarely in the crosshairs of a well financed, lower cost competitor. Yes, DAL, UAL, and USAir have been racing to the bottom but to think SW is immune to competition and won't have to face real world market forces is hubris of the worst kind. I wish you all the best

Immune to competition? We're the fiersest of competitors because we do face real world market forces. That's why we strive to be the most productive. We're allways 'checking six'.

Cycles
 

We all know that the most work and risk is involved with take off and landing. Therefore SWA pilots should earn more because they have to deal with 5 times more risk than a 777 pilot. So there !! Yea !

SkyHigh

Besides, can you imagine what a beating those SWA guys endure every day? I wouldn't want to do it.

Hey, look at the news, They don't have to reach 65, 59 is enough:eek:

A B1900 driver flying 8-10 legs a day in the northeast during the winter, with NO flight attendant, gets my nod for being the highest paid. Or back in the day our J32 drivers flew 10 legs a day, no autopilot, and would be in IMC for a whole 4 day trip.

Flaps 9
 

Flaps 9

I agree and perhaps we could throw in a Cessna 207 pilot in the Alaskan bush who has to deal with 12 to 18 landings a day. They also have to handle overloaded planes, bootleg IFR and drunk pax. Perhaps they should be among the top as well, but unfortunately the world doesnt work that way.

SkyHigh

My Daddy can beat up your Daddy!
 

Enough of the childish comparisons. I wish the best paid only the best! Let us all push the agenda forward on pay. We all deserve every penny of the "old contracts". Let us all focus on that.

Cheers

Let sleeping dogs lie...
 

:p

Amen 8OUT. Let's just put this all to rest. EVERYONE deserves to be fairly paid and that sure hasn't been happening lately. Can you say "hose job"?

Brown Dog

Originally Posted by cutnrun
Agree TP - I wonder how many SW pilots will drop dead on final if they up the retirement age to 65??? They just don't seem to get it.............
Ya, that's real intelligent. Just keep speaking out of your uneducated rectal orifice. Are you with the NTSB or just a dumba$$.:mad:

SW is so competitive they will land when nobody else will! I agree with cutnrun! SW will keep raising the bar on time spent in the drivers seat... I wonder how many legs that crew flew before they went for the sleigh ride?

It is good to want to do a good job for your company... Unless you skimp on safety...

I wonder how many legs that crew flew before they went for the sleigh ride?



Thats not cool at all...It could have happened on their first leg , 2nd, 3rd, etc...As stated before - it could have happened to anyone...

-LA

Swa
 

SWA,

We all know that the SWA boys and girls put in long days. They have been doing it for 30 years now and have had a mostly clean record to show for it.

They taxi awfully fast and will do almost anything to cut ahead of a slow moving 747. And yet they have few accidents to show for it. If only AA could be so good. I like SWA. They are nice to non-revs, are mostly on time and seem to have clean and new planes. However I wouldn't want to work there.


SkyHigh

When was the last troop flight SWA flew to Iraq???? Also my friends wanted to use SWA miles to a foreign country.(oh they don't fly there.) And they are referred to as a MAJOR?????? HO! HO! HO! tis the season.

If it's based on pilot pay we're the only major left. ...And there's a lump of coal for your stocking. HO! HO! HO! Remember, "he knows you've been bad or good..." He also knows when you've been pouting, so get over it.:D

Except for the pay.... They are the Wallmart of the lower 48.... I am not saying those guys suck.... I like the group and would rather fly a 3 on 4 off! No alllllllllllll-nighters! This is probably why they have not killed anyone unitl now! While the other airlines make schedules that fly the crews all around the clock on a 4 or 3+3 back to back trips. You will see more of the same from the other majors as crews fly wiped out....

First leg of the day.

I don't see the relevance of your statement since SWA has no aircraft in their fleet that could make that journey nonstop. (Of course, you knew that, didn't you?)

SWA flies numerous domestic positioning flights for the military. Chances are good that the soldiers heading to Iraq on a World Airways MD11 got their ride from Fort Hood to BWI on a SWA airplane.
Your friends must not be too smart if they didn't realize that SWA "credits" (SWA uses credits, not miles!) are only good on SWA, and that all SWA cities are domestic. (It takes 16 credits to get a free flight so they must be pretty slow learners, too!)

By the way, what did reservation agent tell you when you asked about traveling to London? :confused:
That's MISTER MAJOR to you, buddy! :)

Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to you and yours!

You gotta be kidding with this....
 

:eek: Skyhigh--

If 8-10 hour days are long then I we guess we put in long days. Also, max taxi speed in 20 knots per the FOM. Yes, we will do anything to get around a slow taxiing airplane or someone "waiting on their numbers". Wouldn't you? I'm glad you don't want to work here. BTW, where do you work. Please share so we can bag on your place of employment too. LOL.

As for the knuckle head who asked if we are a "Major" are you even a pilot? An airline is considered a major if they have $1 billion+ in yearly revenue. You probably didn't know that Skywest Airlines has been a major airline for years.

S.B.

Must be corprate culture then....

Ummmm, no. There's a purple and a brown company out there making more than the SWA folks. And yes, both are commercial airlines. (He said, tongue in cheek.)

Great answer
 

Awesome answer!!! I bought Southwest stock in early 2003 because I knew about their fuel hedges. Southwest pays $26 a barrel for oil, while all other airlines pay $60-70, and Southwest barely turned a profit in 05. At United, Fuel is the number 1 expense, even surpassing labor. As soon as Southwest's fuel bill doubles, they will be in trouble. I just sold my Southwest stock... now lets see what happens.
Thanks cutnrun for recognizing that Southwest is not the best thing since sliced bread.