EOS Airlines
 

I just visited the APC main site and saw this new airline, EOS. Five-year CA pay on a B757 is $122. Where do I sign up!!! It sounds like a corporate-type operation with only 48 seats and they pay $122/hr? What a great deal! I know where my resume is going...

Sad thing is, there are ... offs out there flying for this outfit, just like skybus, gojet, etc. Good luck raising any bar with people out there flying for these rates. I bet these guys left Allegiant and are stoked to be flying a B757 now!

I don't know if I'd call it a "corporate-type" operation. It's pretty much like maxjet except all First class instead of business service. One of my friends who lives at my crashpad used to be a flight attendant for Eos. From the sounds of it, they provide an excellent product. It's good to see that they're expanding and seem to be doing well.

It's interesting that they're a CASS participant. Considering they only fly JFK to Stanstead..soon Paris too..I wonder how jumpseating on them works.

It sounded "corporate" in the sense that there isn't that many seats on the airplane, all business class, special attention, etc. Their pay still sucks!

Aww, come on. It's just for a little while. They can't afford to pay a whole lot right now. Once they get going and start making money it'll go up. I'm sure of it. Why, it's gonna go up any day now at Skybus.

i'm sure that's what they've been told...what is interesting is the starting FO pay, while right now, you probably wouldn't be stuck in the right seat for too long, they'd just have to raise the bar on the rest of their pay, particularlly the high captain pay to make things look presentable...but heck, they're giving double what continental is giving a 75-FO.

To compare EOS in any way, shape, or form to Skybus is pretty naive...

Well to compare them in too many ways, shapes, or forms, perhaps. But relatively low initial pay, on the other hand...

Hahaha. I love it. Those Skybus guys don't have a clue. In 5 years, Skybus will either be gone, or their pay will still be $65k for A319 captain. But they say they are willing to work for $65k because...it should go up anyday now...lol!

Talked to an EOS F/O once on my way to JFK. He said they get very used to breaking out the QRH on those 75's across the pond...........

Here's how it works: Their pilots can sit in YOUR cockpit jumpseat, but YOU cannot sit in THEIRS, because they only fly (1) int'l route. CASS was purchased merely for their own pilots, without the afterthought of reciprocity.

Supposedly, anyone hired in the next few months at EOS will be a Capt. within 1 year of DOH...So, check my math...year 2 pay is $112/hr +...who else is giving that kind of second year pay 'cause I want a job with them! To get to 757 Capt and/or pay of $112 hour, how long do I have to work for USAir or United or NWA or CAL or....do I need to go on?...What year pay is $112 hr at DAL on the 757? Oh you have to be a Capt to do better than that...I'm guessing the jr. 757 Capt at DAL has a few years under his/her belt. Compare "projected earnings" over the next 10 years at EOS and USAir, NWA, etc. I bet the EOS guy makes a heck of a lot more in the next 10 years. Yup, EOS might not exist tomorrow but then again maybe USAir won't either. Yes, UPS and FEDEX come close in second year pay but one is not hiring and one is hiring about 3 people a month and you have to go to ANC, not so fun for a guy that lives on the east coast...just my two cents.

I find it humorous how people bash these companies/pilots when really only UPS/FEDEX/SWA pay what we consider "proper wages" and only UPS is hiring at a trickle...AA and DAL are close but AA wont hire off the street for a while and some people can't/don't want to work for DAL for 5-10 years to get to $112/hr. Face it folks, it ain't what it used to be for someone trying to get into the game flying "heavy iron" so let's keep the bashing to a minimum until we can get a national union for ALL "major" pilots then we can bash the scabs and union busters. Bashing someone for trying to make the best living they can is not cool. Think about it, if you happen to live in/near Columbus, OH and could be an A319 Capt. within 6-9 months of DOH, home every night, great stock options (if they hit), and better pay at year 2 (cause you are a Capt.) than any legacy, wouldn't you do that rather than commute to JFK or MSP or EWR? So why bash the Skybus folks for doing what they want?

Nope, I don't work for EOS or Skybus but I'd rather be there than any legacy except maybe two and like I said, one ain't hiring for a long time...

Actually, as far as I know, all the current EOS pilots are guys with at least a thousand hours on type. There may be one or two exceptions in there, but they were all typed and experienced before going to EOS. EOS seems to be a good outfit, pay will get better.

Excellent, fact-based post.......

Hey the way things are going for some of the legacy carriers... who knows if the airline will last long enough for them to upgrade? At least at Max, Eos, Skybus, and V/A there probabaly is a better chance of survivability since their operatining expenses have been calculated based on thier respective operations, unlike the legacy carriers which are trying to re-establish themselves as viable competitors to the LLCs

Good luck to the men and women at these new start ups.

In what way are YOU raising the bar? By supporting a national union? By getting paid even 1/2 of what a jet FO was paid 10 years ago to fly an 86 seat jet? By having your company establish a pension plan? Tell us oh wise and super experienced one: WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO RAISE THE BAR????

C'mon Maxjet, can't you see how he is raising the bar. He's posting here on APC telling everyone how awful they are for flying for a startup. Tell me how the legacies and others are raising the bar at starting pay of anywhere between $25/ hr (USAir) and $39 (UPS). At least the rest of UPS' pay after that is decent, but the other carriers?:confused:

Let's not give KoolaidMan too much grief, come on, his company starts you off at $19/hr, not the lowly $66/hr that EOS gives you and they max out at $99 after 18 YEARS, so that $112+ hr second year pay at EOS doesn't compare! Makes you wonder what people are thinking sometimes, doesn't it? He/She is probably a west coast person and wouldn't want to commute to JFK (who really does?) but are you telling me that he wouldn't leave his sweet RJ F/O position to be a 757 Capt in 2 years at $112/hr? I guess he really is drinking some sort of KoolAid!!!

Here we go again 757er with an ave to grind...
 

I just jumpseated from STN to JFK yesterday. Excellent trip everybody was super helpfull, from check-in at STN to JFK what a great experience the Atlas guy that was also on the flight as a second J/S was having a good time also. Food was great and enjoyed a movie or two, the F/A's were super attentive and I can see why they are getting folks to come back.

Come on 757 dude grow up this is the real thing J/S was great.:)

I jump seated from STN to JFK on Maxjet. Great experience. Hats off to the crews who made it happen!

Now for the $64,000 question. With seat available in the back... who in their right mind would give a rats @$$ about the cockpit jumpseat? I work in that front office... and the last place I want to be when commuting is in that same office!

You guys mis-understood my post. I'll explain again:

EOS pilots can ride to/from JFK, their domicile, in other CASS carriers' COCKPIT jumpseat, but noone except EOS pilots can ride in THEIR own cockpit jumpseat because EOS flies int'l and there is NO int'l CASS. Got it? Yes, I know you guys can 'jumpseat' in the back of EOS/Maxjet flights, just like you can on Delta and United, but NOT in the COCKPIT jumpseat. That is what I meant.

Fella's, I hope no one is complaining that Eos makes you ride in the most comfortable seat in the industry and sip champagne on your way back from Europe instead of wedging into a jumpseat. Eos isn't about hauling cattle, its about comfort and style. BTW no one can jumpseat in the cockpit internationally
As for the pay...as I said before once the company starts to make a profit, pay will increase. Until then, the pilots aren't just employees. They actually have a vested intrest in the success of the company.

Another clueless wonder
 

The only reason to break out the QRH on Eos is you forgot to grab the NY Times in the Jetway!!!!! Mx is excellent

:D

The only thing I am doing to raise the bar is trying to get through to people that flying a 757 for those rates are ridiculous. You could also go to gojet and be a street captain, but you guys don't operate on principle. The point I was trying to make was that pay will never go up as long as managements can look at outfits like this and realize people will fly the same aircraft for less.

UPS 2008 2nd year pay - $111.75

Yup, I think I mentioned that if you read the whole thing...I stated-

"Yes, UPS and FEDEX come close in second year pay but one is not hiring and one is hiring about 3 people a month and you have to go to ANC, not so fun for a guy that lives on the east coast...just my two cents.

I find it humorous how people bash these companies/pilots when really only UPS/FEDEX/SWA pay what we consider "proper wages" and only UPS is hiring at a trickle"

So once again, where can someone getting hired today make $112+/hr second year pay and not commute to ANC? Honestly, who is setting the bar besides UPS/FEDEX/SWA? What percentage of people hired into UPS or FEDEX tomorrow (if they were hiring) are going spend most of next year in the lower 48? That's a big deal to some people. Sorry but I don't think RJ F/O's have a right to talk about setting any bars (flying big jets) AND I WAS ONE FOR 2 YEARS...Funny thing is, when I got hired, our contract did set the bar and it was a shame. If you owned an airline and could get people to work for pennies, wouldn't that make great business sense in this great land of capitalism? It all goes back to a national union...

I am seriously trying to understand where you are coming from. Are you saying that it is ok for you to work where you want and for what wages you deem acceptable for yourself, but that it is not ok for others to do the same? I am sure that there is a reason why you chose you work for SkyWest even though they pay poverty wages.(no dis on SKW, I think that they run one of the better commuter operations) There are reasons why people work at EOS and Maxjet. if in fact you really believe in what you are saying then I guess you better be the first to set a good example and quit your job over principal. After you have quit your job please write back. We will be sure to congratuate and thank you for taking one for the advancement of the industry. Bottom line is, and I think that I speak for a lot of pilots at EOS and MaxJet, there is a lot more to a "job" than the money. I work a great schedule, fly good equipment, work with GREAT people, have happy passengers, stay in great hotels, and get paid reasonably well for it. This is SO much more important to me than being possibly slightly better paid and having the type of working environment that the United system offers. :D:D:D

What is first year FO pay and YOUR company?

I just think that flying 757's and 767's for what you fly them for is ridiculous. Just like SkyBus and flying the Airbus for what they fly for. Allegiant guys use the same argument with regards to low pay. They justify it by saying they are home every night and quick upgrade.

Our company is one of the better "commuters" to work for. Our first year pay is horrible. I could go to Trans States and get paid more first year per hour, but make more at SkyWest because of a minimum daily guarantee. But yes, the per hour rate is disgusting.

Being that you only have 48 seats, you obviously must charge a lot more for tickets. That is where I got the corporate comparison from. I just can't see how you think it is good for the rest of us flying for the rates you do. On a seat by seat basis, we make near United rates. If you put your aircraft to the normal capacity, I would be willing to be we make more than you. Again, on a seat by seat basis.

No matter what I say or anyone says, there will always be people who will fly for less. It's been going on since the beginning of the airlines. If you guys can justify your decision, good for you.

For the sake of my argument, we'll assume your 757 holds 150 people compared to my RJ which holds 50.

EOS First Year FO makes $0.44 per seat.

SKYW First Year FO makes $0.385 per seat.

EOS 2nd Year FO makes $0.446 per seat

SKYW 2nd Year FO makes $0.697 per seat

Again, that assumes your aircraft is configured for 150 people.

The seat cost per mile is not a valid argument as for what a pilot makes. A flight from ILM to JFK runs about $250 to $350 each way depending on when the ticket is purchased. That's about $24,000 gross revenue if the flight is full. The block time is about 1:50. EOS carries 48 passengers at a price of about $2,400 per seat, which translate to gross revenue of $115,200, again if seats are full with a block time of about 8:00. If both carriers have an average utilization of 16:00 per day, you can determine where who is going to make more.... even if both aircraft had the same direct operating expenses.

The bar setting thing does not start with the 757 or Airbus pilot... it starts at the bottom of the food chain... the RJ guys such like yourself. Regional guys sold themselves when they accepted such low pay to fly a jet. The low pay then flowed up to the majors who at one time owned the commuters. Perform an analysis of first through fight year pay for initial hires in the 80's to today at Delta, NW, UAL, and CAL. After inflation you will see that initial pay has dropped dramatically.

So Koolaidman... don't preach to the SKYBUS, V/A, EOS, or MAXjet guys on how they should raise the bar. The bulk of these crews are high time experienced pilots who were either furloughed, or took early retirement. You should be out their on your soapbox preaching to the entrants to the regional demanding hire entry and subsequent pay and benefits.

That's a very good point. With that said, I hope there is serious upside available to all flight crew members as things get better over time. Typically, only management benefits...

Excellent points. Unfortunately, I was at the commuters when the transition from turboprop to jet happened. As a group we thought that more than doubling our pay was a good thing. I went from $25.00 to $65.00 as a Captain. The majors were hiring and it was a great time to be in the industry. I wish that your point had been made then, and that we had listened. As you stated above this wave eventually hit the main line and pay went down. Hopefully for Koolaidman and others behind him, the downward pay cycle will stop and it will start to go back up. At this point in my career I have learned that I am never going to get rich flying airplanes. Unfortunately, I love flying airplanes. Maxjet and EOS are companies that let there pilots fly and have a great quality of life. At this point in my life I will take that and be happy.

Except Skywest flies RJs with up to 76 seats...and EOS 757s have 48 seats.

Your reasoning is sound, but for the sake of this discussion is flawed for the above reason.

Very flawed argument using the seats per aircraft...apples to oranges...

I kinda like the comparison about major league and minor league ball...they all have MINIMUM salaries at each level but the good players get the big bucks from the big teams...

In the military your pay is based a little on seniority and a little on merit (rank), could that work in the airlines?...probably with alot of a$$kissing taking place!

Yet another reasonable argument for us all belonging to one union they focuses on the pilots. Structured pay based on Gross Weight. An aircraft weighing xxxxx to xxxxx pays $XXX.XX, an so on. If we all had the same rates then pilot pay would no longer be a bargaining chip for companies. Lets start making deals based on what management gets paid for a change. Let them skin the cat somewhere else besides the employees pockets.

One National union, that was strong (as in "I am afraid if I cross this picket line someone is going to hit me with a lead-pipe" strong) would go a little of the way toward re-regulating the airlines. What to do about a national seniority list, or perhaps just "union scale" based upon gross weight is another question. The issue is that the Union, while giving many things over the years to pilots, is not "strong" like that. As long as people will cross picket lines, pilots will have no leverage. As long as there are no long-term effects from crossing a picket line, people will continue to do so.

For what it's worth, it took me over 10 yrs at brand X airline to make $124 per hour as a 757 Capt. So sounds like the bar has been raised at a smaller carrier by oh say 5 yrs...

If you don't mind sharing with us, which carrier were you with that took 10 years to make $124.00 with?

No probs capt ATA Airlines.great company...

ALPA looked at a "minimum" back in the 80s. When you set a minimum wage, then that's what you are saying the seat is worth. Several years ago Delta paid around 265/hr for a 76/75 captain. Others were less than 200. If you set the min at 265, are you going to pay the six month assesment for the 200/hr guys to strike to bring it up to 265? Or are you going to do a SOS when the 265/hr has to go on strike because the union said the seat was worth under 200/hr?

When you set the bar, whatever it may be, that's what management will use as there "end" point, in good times. Why should management even bargain when they know they can go into mediation/arbitration and just wait on what the union said the seat was worth.

Just as things have bargined themselves down (pattern bargaining), it should work its way back up. That's how Delta ended up with over 310/hr for a 777 captain. It was "United Plus". Unfortunately years later it became "United minus".

And by the way, supplemental type carriers ususally have always paid less than the legacies, for doing the same job on the same equipment. And I lump startups along with supplemental carriers in the same group. Give them time.

A carrier with 4 airplanes will not affect the bargaining at any national or major. And remember, if the minimum was not good enough, there wouldn't be a minimum.

So are you saying that regionals are the reason the legacies took a huge pay cut and not bankruptcy?

If you want to use weight for measurement of pay, fine. Second year Southwest or American MD-80 guys makes what compared to what EOS second year FO makes? That is the point I am trying to make. It is tough to get pay up when you will fly a 757 for X amount while American is trying to get back to what they had. I don't see why that is so difficult to understand? If you want to use the aircraft's weight for a measurement of pay, we can do that too. Next post when I get bored.