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Need clarification on 30 hours in 7 day rule
I need a little explanation of the 30 in 7 rule, is this legal
I am an FO for a Major Domestic Airline Trip 1 Monday 4:37 Tuesday 3:10 Wednesday 7:39 Mon-Wed 15:26 Thursday -Day Off Trip 2 Friday 7:56 Sat 6:38 Fri-Sat 14:34 This is Scheduled exactly 30 hours in six days with ONE DAY OFF in between trips. IF I go a minute over before I start the last leg am I legal? Does my 30 in 7 clock start over if I have a day off between trips? Sorry for the question but I need clarity. Thanks Boogie |
I think the key is "Scheduled", the company is getting their money's worth on paper. Like you say, if you have a hick-up in the schedule, then they'll have to repair your schedule (DH on a leg is an easy way to do it).
What does your does your contract say? |
Our scheduling system is supposed to catch this with a 28.5 hour buffer.
This happened as the result of a computer trade. If it is illegal or goes over a 28.5 hour buffer it is not supposed to allow the trade. So by my contract this is legal. That said I want to get home on the 25th. So since I am going to places like MKE and BOS in the winter the odd over me going over are pretty high. |
I am not worried bout getting paid because I have pay protection, or the legality by the contract, I am worried about exceeding the FAA mins.
Does my clock reset as a result of having a day off between trips? |
Originally Posted by Boogie Nights
(Post 277657)
I am not worried bout getting paid because I have pay protection, or the legality by the contract, I am worried about exceeding the FAA mins.
Does my clock reset as a result of having a day off between trips? |
The 30 in 7 limitation is based on scheduled block. If you go over it's no big deal so long as your schedule is the same as the original. That's the critical part...if you are rescheduled at all you need to take another look because then the actual time flown so far plus the scheduled block remaining must not exceed the FAR limitations.
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On the begining of the 7th day, if you're scheduled block for that day will take you over 30 in the last 7, you can not do that trip on the 7th day.
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Legal to start, legal to finish.
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It is a sliding window. If you are legal to start the day as published you can finish except something goes different. For example, if you divert and add an additional flight, and the change puts you over, you can not fly it. DH is usually the way they fix it.
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Not to beat a dead horse but....whack!
§ 121.471 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All flight crewmembers. (a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed— (1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year; (2) 100 hours in any calendar month; (3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days; (4) 8 hours between required rest periods. Rolling and scheduled being the key. From the faa.gov site. Different for the flag carriers. |
Originally Posted by Window_Seat
(Post 277667)
On the begining of the 7th day, if you're scheduled block for that day will take you over 30 in the last 7, you can not do that trip on the 7th day.
This statement is the key one of the thread. If you are scheduled not to exceed 30 at the beginning of the day you are good, regardless of how the block works out. (Legal to start- legal to finish.) HOWEVER- should your schedule change during the course of the day (from the original pairing) it needs to be changed so that you do not exceed 30 hrs by the end of the day (In other words you are now "starting over" with a new schedule, so all previous block must be considered.) |
Originally Posted by TheBaron
(Post 277700)
Not to beat a dead horse but....whack!
§ 121.471 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All flight crewmembers. (a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed— (1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year; (2) 100 hours in any calendar month; (3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days; (4) 8 hours between required rest periods. Rolling and scheduled being the key. From the faa.gov site. Different for the flag carriers. (a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed-- (1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year; (2) 100 hours in any calendar month; (3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days; (4) 8 hours between required rest periods. (b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule a flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceding the scheduled completion of any flight segment without a scheduled rest period during that 24 hours of at least the following: (1) 9 consecutive hours of rest for less than 8 hours of scheduled flight time. (2) 10 consecutive hours of rest for 8 or more but less than 9 hours of scheduled flight time. (3) 11 consecutive hours of rest for 9 or more hours of scheduled flight time. (c) A certificate holder may schedule a flight crewmember for less than the rest required in paragraph (b) of this section or may reduce a scheduled rest under the following conditions: (1) A rest required under paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 10 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period. (2) A rest required under paragraph (b)(2) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 11 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period. (3) A rest required under paragraph (b)(3) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 9 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 12 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period. (4) No certificate holder may assign, nor may any flight crewmember perform any flight time with the certificate holder unless the flight crewmember has had at least the minimum rest required under this paragraph. (d) Each certificate holder conducting domestic operations shall relieve each flight crewmember engaged in scheduled air transportation from all further duty for at least 24 consecutive hours during any 7 consecutive days. (e) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may assign any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept assignment to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period. (f) Time spent in transportation, not local in character, that a certificate holder requires of a flight crewmember and provides to transport the crewmember to an airport at which he is to serve on a flight as a crewmember, or from an airport at which he was relieved from duty to return to his home station, is not considered part of a rest period. (g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time. The first paragraph should apply for the first 4 items, not just one. |
Un-Holy Thread Revival!
It's Alive!
...and it's going to change soon! |
Get Netflix or something. There simply has to be something better to do with the internet than look up 5 year old threads.
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Netflix ****ed me off when they doubled their prices. Now i just sit in a hotel room and either stare out the window watching the interstate or walk down to the awful waffle and get brunch. Ahhh the glamor....
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Well that will show them! They admitted their mistake and apologized. Can't say the same about most corporations these days.
I don't think $9/mo for unlimited streaming movies and television shows is too much. Been hitting the classic TV shows lately. There's literally hundreds of hours of Cheers, Rockford Files, etc. |
Originally Posted by JungleBus
(Post 277663)
The 30 in 7 limitation is based on scheduled block. If you go over it's no big deal so long as your schedule is the same as the original. That's the critical part...if you are rescheduled at all you need to take another look because then the actual time flown so far plus the scheduled block remaining must not exceed the FAR limitations.
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Originally Posted by TheBaron
(Post 277700)
Not to beat a dead horse but....whack!
§ 121.471 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All flight crewmembers. (a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed— (1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year; (2) 100 hours in any calendar month; (3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days; (4) 8 hours between required rest periods. Rolling and scheduled being the key. From the faa.gov site. Different for the flag carriers. 30 in 7 is as much of a "look back" as it is a "look forward." Before accepting that last day, you much make sure the schedule doesn't take you over 30 hours, i.e. look back plus look forward. If it doesn't you're good. If, after you start, due to delays, it takes you over, you're still legal. The company cannot reschedule you on that last day, however, if it takes you over 30. This includes any and all flying for compensation no matter what part you operate under or for multiple companies. |
Right: Say you are on a 4 day with 20 legs. (yes we do those). And it looks like you are going to be over 30hrs by the last leg. I don't believe you can do it if it would take you over the 30.
Says in paragraph (G). (g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time. |
The following is a link to an FAA legal interpretation on the subject -
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...1992/Reich.rtf Hope this helps. |
No one has answered the biggest mystery of all . . . How did the O.P. Get hired at a 121 Major without having a clue how to apply 30 in 7? Although, I suppose that's probably exactly what the airline was looking for. With all the mis-information on the first page, I seriously doubt those posters can wrap they're minds around lookback rest either. Are there any majors out their still trying to hire aviators?
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And don't forget one other little 'gotcha' when you are trying to figure 30 in 7...
What TIME do you start/finish? A long time ago screw scheds hit me with two 4 day trips, with one day off between. Well, calander day wise, it was about 32 in 7, so I called them back (after doing the math) and said, "Hey, I'm not legal for that..." And they said, "Yes you are, that last leg gets in late, and we use ZULU TIME to compute 30 in 7, so those last 4 hours are NOT COUNTED!" I still wasn't convinced, so I called a Guard buddy of mine, who was also the New England Regional Director of the FAA at the time. I said, "Can they DO THAT? Use ZULU time??" He said, "Yup, every company gets to chose if they are going to use one of 3 times for figuring 30 in 7, 1. Zulu, 2. Local base time zone (ie. your calander day) Or 3. An aribitrary time, ie. they could choose Central time instead of Eastern, or even West Coast, but they have to use that same time, all the time, for everyone, in every base." Since Delta is run on East Coast time, they get a 'freebie' by using Zulu time, because as in my case above, they get to push all flying after 7/8pm into the next day, thus they escape a lot of domestic 30 in 7 problems when they cram two four day trips together, and the last leg(s) gets in after 7/8pm. |
Originally Posted by schoolio
(Post 277687)
Legal to start, legal to finish.
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Originally Posted by FixTheMess
(Post 1188418)
No one has answered the biggest mystery of all . . . How did the O.P. Get hired at a 121 Major without having a clue how to apply 30 in 7? Although, I suppose that's probably exactly what the airline was looking for. With all the mis-information on the first page, I seriously doubt those posters can wrap they're minds around lookback rest either. Are there any majors out their still trying to hire aviators?
Oh, and like it was said above.....HOLY NECROPOST, this thread should've died long, long ago. |
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