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Old 06-13-2006 | 08:01 PM
  #11  
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From: A300/310 Capt
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the airbus rudder is very sensitive. i believe that they reported that the f/o applied the wrong rudder at first, then swapped from full rudder in one direction to full rudder in the opposite direction. typically, you do not use the rudder on the airbus unless it is needed for crosswind control during t/o and ldg, or if you lose an engine.
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Old 06-13-2006 | 08:26 PM
  #12  
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From: C47 PIC/747-400 SIC
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Originally Posted by flyerNy
neither do i, but what about the 707 in japan, the aircraft broke up dont remember if tail came off too..but i dont think that counts because its not a piece of junk like airbus.
that was in severe turbulence over mt. fuji,anything would have been bent or broken by the stresses that day.
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Old 06-14-2006 | 06:30 AM
  #13  
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From: Bug Smasher Captain, CFI
Default NTSB findings...

Here are some clips from the NTSB Safety Recomendation document:

"The Board notes that, at the time the vertical stabilizer and rudder separated from the airplane, the airplane was flying at 255 knots indicated airspeed (KIAS), which is significantly below the airplane’s design maneuvering speed of 273."

"Transport-category airplanes certified by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) must meet the airworthiness standards in 14 CFR Part 25. Subpart C, pertaining to the airplane structure, includes Section 25.351, titled “Yaw maneuver conditions,” which requires that the airplane be designed for loads resulting from the following series of maneuvers in unaccelerated
flight, beginning at zero yaw: (1) full rudder input resulting in full rudder deflection (or as limited by the rudder limiter system); (2) holding this full deflection input throughout the resulting over-swing5 and steady-state sideslip angles; and (3) while the airplane is at the steadystate
sideslip angle, a release of this rudder input and the return of the rudder to neutral. The A300 was certified as having met this regulatory standard. In other words, the airplane must be designed to withstand the results of a full rudder input in one direction followed by (after the airplane reaches equilibrium) a release of that rudder input. It is noteworthy that these certification requirements do not consider a return of the rudder to neutral from the over-swing sideslip angle, nor do they consider a full rudder
movement in one direction followed by a movement in the opposite direction. Although, as previously mentioned, most transport-category airplanes are equipped with rudder limiter systems that limit rudder deflection at higher airspeeds, which prevents single rudder inputs from causing structural overload, the Safety Board is concerned that pilots have not been made aware that, a full or nearly full rudder deflection in one direction followed by a full or nearly full rudder deflection in the other direction, even at speeds below the design maneuvering speed, can dramatically increase the risk of structural failure of the vertical stabilizer or the rudder."
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Old 06-14-2006 | 06:36 AM
  #14  
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From: Bug Smasher Captain, CFI
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The quoted information above is from the NTSB Safety Recomendation document for American Airlines flight 587.

It can be accessed at the following location:
www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2002/A02_01_02.pdf
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Old 06-14-2006 | 09:23 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by griptite
I dont recall any incidents of tails of Boeing airliners departing in flight.
Please provide details.
No, they just fully deflect in one direction and roll the aircraft into the ground.
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Old 06-15-2006 | 06:19 AM
  #16  
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From: Boeing, Right
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Originally Posted by Packer Backer
No, they just fully deflect in one direction and roll the aircraft into the ground.
True statement. This happened several times on 737's in the 90's.

737 Incidents
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Old 06-22-2006 | 05:24 PM
  #17  
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From: A320 capt
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Originally Posted by griptite
I dont recall any incidents of tails of Boeing airliners departing in flight.
Please provide details.
there are at least 3 737 accidents attributed to rudder failure.
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Old 06-22-2006 | 05:45 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by 1jetpilot
I never touch the rudder when I fly.
That must make for some interesting crosswind landings.
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Old 06-22-2006 | 06:18 PM
  #19  
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From: Retired from USAF & United
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I'm just curious how you land in a 25K crosswind if you don't touch the rudder?
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Old 06-22-2006 | 07:10 PM
  #20  
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From: MD 11 FO
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Originally Posted by JonC
I'm just curious how you land in a 25K crosswind if you don't touch the rudder?
As airspeed increases on the A300 a rudder limmiter begins to limit rudder travel from 30 degrees down to about 3. The catch is sitting on the ground tapping the rudder pedals for 3-5 degrees of travel is the same amount of rudder pressure for the same 3-5 degrees of travel once the rudder limmiter engages. So no he did not push the pedals to the floor, it took very little pressure to move the rudder to its design max deflection at that airspeed. Having gone through taining, I can see how anyone in the same situation, prior to this accident, could have done the same thing.

BTW China Air 747 rudder came off over the Pacific. Granted it was after a complete 360 roll.

Two schools of thought on xwind landing, cross control and rudder kick out. The latter is taught during training.
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