delay in upgrade times permananent?
 

A little surprised this one hasn't been thrown around yet. Everyone keeps talking about lengthier upgrades as a result of age 65. What are people's thoughts on whether or not this is permanent? My initial thoughts are that the airlines will slow hiring to the point that someone hired 5 years from now would've originally been hired one year from now and those folks upgrade times will be more similar to times before age 65. I know there are a lot of variables involved in determining upgrade times, just wondering what people's thoughts are on long term age 65 impacts alone. I posted a separate reply on the military forum for those guys sitting on the fence re: separating/retiring.

I don't think that will be the case at all. Most guys Medical out at CAL from Diabetes I think,at least thats what one of their CA's told me. I imagine all airlines have some senior guys who have some health issues . Obviously hiring will slow as well as upgrades but to what point?, I don't think anyone knows. I think management will slow down the hiring until they can figure out what the attrition will look like. I am sure they would rather be short-staffed then over-staffed, so I think it will take a year or so and they will have a better idea, probably more like 6 months, summer might be interesting.

The answer to your question will depend on whether the projected hiring will be based on real growth or based on attrition. If the major airlines go through real expansion and growth, the upgrade time may even come down. If the hiring is mainly due to attrition, then that's bad news for all of us. We'll have to wait and see.

I suspect many senior CAs will medical out right at 60, asn an example for NWA, a senior CA told me there are over 35 senior CAs based out of DTW on medical leave right now and they are not even 59 years old.

My understanding is that NWA senior Captains still have a retirement program..so my guess is that if they get it at 60 they'll get out. I know I would.

I tend to agree with SAAB.... 6-9 months for things to show their hand then I think a better discussion can be had on this subject. Even at that... MOST carriers had more projected hiring than the number of retirements that were expected. Slow down some..... probably.... delay everything 5 years....probably not.

First, let me say that I'm one of the younger (not young) pilots who didn't want the age 65 legislation to pass, but now that it's here, why can't we just accept it and all the changes that will come with it. As far as upgrade time goes, there are lots of variables, but however long the delay is for your upgrade due to guys staying beyond 60, you will now have up to 5 extra years to serve or become Captain (which you didn't have before). I am fairly confident that I'm part of the majority who aren't looking forward to going beyond 60 or even up to that age, but again it is now a law, so let's learn to work with and support our gramps remaining in the industry.

The key to dealing with the age 65 issue is to mediacal out whenever you can. Take the LTD then do something on the side. Jump through whatever hoops they need you to but after that just enjoy the money while doing something else. Don't go out of way screaming for waivers or anything else. Just do what the Dr says and cash the freakin check each month. Let ALPA deal with it when this industry continues to go backwards.

It's a direct effect. Each and every day a pilot over 60 works there will be no need to promote an under 60 pilot for that position. Whether it's 2 years or 5. Growth or attrition based advancement.

Note: I was for 65. Still, it ain't happen in a vacuum.

CPT,

That attitude is pathetic! Who do you think pays for LTD fraud? I have a long time "friend" who tried what you suggest and fortunately for him he didn't fool anyone. I say fortunately because he had many people watching him and he would'nt have been able to "just cash the check." If your suggestion was not meant to imply fraud please accept my apology in advance. Otherwise, please explain what you were implying.:cool:

If you are able to get a "waiver or anything else" it is the right thing to do. Cashing the check and doing something on the side when a waiver is possible is FRAUD! I am amazed and frankly can't believe what we are teaching our children about what is right and wrong.:eek:

Considered alone, it will have the potential to slow hiring for up to a 5-yr period (other factors will have longer impacts). Think of it as a 5-gal bucket of water, if you continue to pour 1-gal/hour into a full bucket, 1-gal/hr will spill out. If you suddenly increase the capacity to 10-gal, the outflow is affected until the 10-gal point is reached, then the outflow will resume at 1-gal/hr again. It isn't an exact analogy since you are actually drawing pilots from the bucket and replacing them with new pilots, but you did stop the potential outflow for 5-yrs (although there will not be 100% takers).

Once you've crossed a picket line, anything is easy. :rolleyes:

You sound like a really great dude! I wish I could fly with someone like you.

Great Post!

I'm not sure if you meant it or you were being sarcastic. But for me the reality is that this is no longer the career I signed up for. With that said, I have too much time invested just to walk away. MY schedule isn't that bad and as far as CAL is concerned I'm sitting pretty well. But again, between TSA, PBS, and a pilot group that is hell bent on taking whatever management gives us I've just gotten to the point, along with many others, that if the opportunity came along I would gladly stay out is all.

Read my post again. I never said anything at all relating to or suggesting fraud. Relax.

CPT,

The "key" is to medical out "whenever" you can? I am just a former Marine and not the sharpest tool in the shed so please enlighten me as to what that statement meant. "Take" the LTD (vs. legitimately receive) and don't go "out of the way" screaming for waivers or "anything" else? Semantics aside, I feel your implications where less than above board. I have flown with some (thankfully there are not too many here at SWA) who have some sense of entitlement and frankly after listening to their rant I feel like pouring some fuel on myself and lighting a match (from Airplane). Statements such as "I am not leaving here with any sick leave because I have a military medical plan" and "I keep my sick leave balance at zero because I know our PMA (pilot mutual aid) will pitch in and get me through the six months till LTD kicks in" come to mind. There have been a few who have accomplished the task of getting on LTD I feel undeservedly and when their name comes up in a conversation everyone rolls their eyes because they were such crappy employees we are almost just glad to be rid of them. All I can say is someone who is commiting fraud deserves to be found out and utilmately be prosecuted.

Ultimately one must be able to live with themself when they make decisions that negatively impact others. The problem is our society has so distorted the difference between right and wrong that is far to easy for some to be comfortable with themselves when they are scam artists.
I am not the morality police but those that are dishonest will eventually get what they deserve regardless of whether they "think" they got away with something. Someone has to pay for dishonesty and fraud.:cool:

I will leave you with two stories that I feel make a statement regarding our discussion. First I flew with a captain when I was at Pan Am (the original) who had gotten a waiver for having a heart attack and I marveled at his energy and work ethic. I will say he formed a very positive impression on me. The second story involves a captain I got stuck with for a whole month. From the beginning he rubbed me wrong with his attitudes about everything from money to relationships. From child support, to taking from others, to cheating on taxes (very flagrant). Well he wouldn't be a poster boy for the change in the age 65 rule because he died about 5 months after retirement. I truly believe it was because of his poor work ethic and due to Karma. I will say I did not shed a tear (and I have compassion for almost everyone) and when his name comes up I feel it is necessary to make sure he is not described as a saint.

Again, I didin't state anything involving fraud. Clearly you are one to judge. Be careful as that might actually require your soul to be judged one day. Get off your high horse.

And what do you gain by that? Nothing. Just makes you look better for the moment is all. And what gives you the right to decide if someone is right or wrong?

CPT,

I have flown with many who say things and then pretend that they didn't. Nice moon walking though. You still have not replied to the specifics of why I (and I apologize) hijacked the discussion. While I "relax" and get off my "high horse" I would suggest that you don't mention LTD again in any of your posts because I for one won't believe anything you have to say. The specific words you used and how you presented them would make me watch your "career progression" carefully.

Once again I am ending a discussion with someone who I wish had not shared his/her thoughts with me (and many others on this website). I will not be the one to ultimately judge anyone but if you or anyone else commits any type of fraud I will not (as I said) shed a tear if your scam ends in defeat.:cool:

Go sit in front of your "I love me wall."

I'm not scamming anyone nor do I intend to. But if a Dr. took my medical I won't be the one begging for him to overlook something is all. I guess you feel that would be OK so long as you get to keep flying. Who's scamming who? And as far as you believing me or not, well I really don't care what you decide to do. I'm glad you love flying as much as you do. How many plaques and certificates do you have in your home office? Don't answer that...

You were against age 60 then?

Get off your high horse and light'n up Francis

Otto, are you suggesting I am a scab? NO, I am not. The opposite actually.

I feel the same way. My sick bank will be ZERO when I leave CAL I can assure you of that.

I get 5 hours per month because we gave up something else in the contract for this and I am not giving a cent of it back to management.

You remind me of the guys that brag when they retire with 1000 plus hours of sick leave. They leave and get nothing for it. STUPID! But management sure appreciates the gift. It helps their bonuses be a tad bigger.

CPT,

I suspected as much based on your original post. It is too bad that you and your fellow pilots gave up so much. I find it at the very least rather selfish and arrogant that you feel someone else should work when you are not ill.:cool:

Actually I do have over 1200 hours (1480 trips) of sick leave and I don't think it is stupid (I call it planning). I have been blessed with good health and if something happens to me (catastrophic illness) my wife, four girls and I will have full pay for quite sometime. Then I will take LTD because I am eligible for it not because I am entitled to it. Besides I still enjoy going to work and I need a break from five women.:)

No, sorry.

CPT,

I guess I missed this one this morning. For your information I don't have an "I love me wall" with all the plaques and certificates as you suggest. All those things are in boxes in the garage. I do have integrity and recognize those that don't.

Good job trying to deflect once again from my suggestion that your attitude towards LTD might include falsifying or not attempting to "get back your medical" if the opportunity presents itself. I sleep very well at night because right and wrong mean something to me. My children need an example of honesty and clearly you seem to live in a grey area where anything goes as long as it benefits you. :rolleyes:

What kind of horse do you ride Larcifer? I was actually for changing or eliminating the age 60 rule even back at age 30 even though it would personally have benefited (and it did) me. The difference between what is right and wrong about the rule depends on how selfish one is.:cool:

Me nothing. I voted no.

And sick leave is not just when you are ill. I use it for family, personal, and related issues. If you don't like that, then so be it.

Again, get off your hollier than thou chair.

Not sure how it is with SWA but at CAL anything more than 3 months sick bank and you only risk losing it so you damn straight I'm going to use it. Either way I obviously don't hold a candle to your ethics, professionalism, and dedication so we might as well just leave one another alone. You should not talk to those so beneath you. Take care big guy. Enjoy your "I love me wall." as long as you can.

I wonder why CAL gate agents and flight attendants are hands down the most disgruntled, rude, and obnoxious people I ever met. This guy has issues just like the majority of his pilot group.

I always thought it was becuase people used to make fun of them for working for CAL, kinda like the kid in HS who everybody picked on then became a cop..........

The Gate agents are terrible sometimes, sometimes they are not, IAH usually bad. I have to say I have heard stories but most of the pilots I come into contact with at CAL haven been great guys/gals, some of the older guys (look like they are dead) seem to have some issues, but those are probably the guys who chose to be SCABS..........

CPT,

Okay, you can put a fork in me I am done. The discussion we have had has been less than successfull and short of quoting scripture (which probably won't help) it will do no good to continue any further. I actually consider your disparaging comments about me to be a badge of honor.

It reminds me of a fellow Marine officer who asked me if I was "honest Abe" or something when I went in to pay for some gasoline when I went over at the gas pump. I didn't get it at first (I was young) but was quite aware of it when he was kicked out a few months later for lying and being dishonest (which adversely affected his fellow officers). Good luck!;)

I don't have that experience. Maybe it's you?

hahah, I have several buddies that are Ex-Express and walked over the lot to CAL, and they say that they can't believe the difference in how they are treated with a CAL ID as opposed to an Expressjet one they used to wear, sad if you ask me................... Again I have had generally good experiences, but the ones that I have had the most problems with have been the CLE & IAH gate agents,


me on a dead-head "Good morning ladies, I was hoping I could pre-board if you wouldn't mind"

Them "can you pre-board??, your Express, you'll have to wait "

It's the culture @ CAL. There is a lot of Lorenzo left around. As a whole, CAL employees suffer from an inferiority complex with regard to themselves and fellow CAL employees. The company keeps employees divided to the lowest common denominator. Everytime I hear an employee speak about "The Company" with fear and reverence of "YAWEH" it disgust me. The CAL employees are the most dedicated, professional and cowardly of any in the industry. We'll never get the respect of the company or fellow employees until we unite and look out for each other. Not gonna happen so the merger seems to be the only option. It will suck but it will either unite CAL employees or give them an example to draw from. Our unity is pathetic!

I have issues with a SWA guy trying to turn words around to make me out a lier, thief, gas stealing, or LTD fraud. He feels it isn't stupid to retire with a sick bank full of unpaid hours. I disagree. He feels it is OK to do everything he can to get back into the cockpit where as I leave it up to the professionals to decide.

If he was at CAL he'd be the first guy volunteering for Jr Man pay to HELP the company as they short staff the airline. My issues are with guys like him that benefit themselves at the expense of fellow pilots. It is guys like him why we had one more round of un needed furloughs in May of 03. Guys like him sell their vacation back to the company and reduce staffing levels right during the summer season. So where you say I have issues like the majority of the pilot group I would strongly disagree. Because if I was part of the majority we would not have passed such a FKed up contract.

You make some good points, but the reality of it is that he works for an airline that pays decent and treats their employees like human beings, you on the other hand don't. If I worked for Southwest I too would probably want to help the company out, if I worked for an airline like CAL that walks all over their employees, you can bet your "behind" that I would use all of my sick time...............

And therein lies a lesson lost on virtually all airline managements that fail to or don't care to understand that if you treat and pay your employees well and with respect, it will pay great dividends to the company. :(

Airline managements .... Lost in Space.

Ditto! 5hrs in sick-bank.

UOTE=SAABaroowski;289316]You make some good points, but the reality of it is that he works for an airline that pays decent and treats their employees like human beings, you on the other hand don't. If I worked for Southwest I too would probably want to help the company out, if I worked for an airline like CAL that walks all over their employees, you can bet your "behind" that I would use all of my sick time...............[/QUOTE]

It appears the differences between sick leave policies may be in play here. SWA has a pretty generous 10 for 1 accumulation rate of sick leave. You work 10 you get one trip of sick leave. Pretty easy to acculmulate if you are relatively "healthy."

I am most certainly not going to say I haven't used sick leave in some grey areas. I will say there is a difference between using it because your spouse is ill and you have young children or you have a doctor's appointment, etc., and using it for "personal" reasons that have nothing to do with being ill. Not judging, just posing an ethical question which we each have to make peace with.

The pilot group at CAL saved their pensions (as well as AA) while other "legacies" lost theirs. I believe they are to be commended for that. Did the mgmt take too much? Perhaps, but I would say that making a fellow employee work (by abusing sick leave) because you feel the mgmt got a big bonus is targeting the wrong culprit.:rolleyes:

CPT,

I thought we were done with this discussion. Since you still wish to justify your attitudes and apparently your actions with reference to LTD and sick leave I will chime in once more.

Your first comment in this thread alluded to perhaps "looking" for a way to "medical" out. I have no problem with LTD benefiting those who legitimately need it. You however, suggested that the "key" was to get on LTD and keep it by not jumping through hoops to get your medical back. Your suggestion was to let the "professionals" decide and then just cash the ..... check." Should anyone wonder why management then requests a second or third evaluation of the individual requesting to be put on LTD.

I invite anyone to go back through this thread and find where I called you a liar or anything else you suggested in the above. I posed questions of your attitude on the above subjects and I believe you are questioning yourself because you stepped in something that smells. I word to the wise for anyone reading our banter back and forth. If you think something similar to what Calpilottootoo does, just keep it to yourself. It would be difficult to justify your actions if they are in direct violation of a personnel policy.:cool:

Just remember that when all else fails and your argument is going nowhere disparage your opponents ethics by ridiculing him for having too much sick leave. He is after all just one of those "guys like him" that is bringing us all down.:eek:

BTW CPT, may I ask why you don't have anything on your public profile? That as well as those at SWA who block their board (computer) always get me wondering.