Takeoff Alternate Legalities Question
02-02-2008, 05:37 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: MD-88 F/O
Posts: 123
Here's most of those regs you referenced (and my theory) -
91.175 Takeoff and landing under IFR.
... f) Civil airport takeoff minimums.
Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no pilot operating an aircraft under parts 121, 125, 129, or 135 of this chapter may takeoff from a civil airport under IFR unless weather conditions are at or above the weather minimum for IFR takeoff prescribed for that airport under part 97 of this chapter. If takeoff minimums are not prescribed under part 97 of this chapter for a particular airport, the following minimums apply to takeoffs under IFR for aircraft operating under those parts:
(1) For aircraft, other than helicopters, having two engines or less - 1 statute mile visibility.
(2) For aircraft having more than two engines - 1/2 statute mile visibility.
(3) For helicopters - 1/2 statute mile visibility.
121.617 Alternate airport for departure.
(a) If the weather conditions at the airport of takeoff are below the landing minimums in the certificate holder's operations specifications for that airport, no person may dispatch or release an aircraft from that airport unless the dispatch or flight release specifies an alternate airport located within the following distances from the airport of takeoff:
(1) Aircraft having two engines. Not more than one hour from the departure airport at normal cruising speed in still air with one engine inoperative.
(2) Aircraft having three or more engines. Not more than two hours from the departure airport at normal cruising speed in still air with one engine inoperative.
(b) For the purpose of paragraph (a) of this section, the alternate airport weather conditions must meet the requirements of the certificate holder's operations specifications.
(c) No person may dispatch or release an aircraft from an airport unless he lists each required alternate airport in the dispatch or flight release.
FARs - 121.619 Alternate airport for destination: IFR or over the top: Domestic operations.
121.625 Alternate airport weather minimums.
No person may list an airport as an alternate airport in the dispatch or flight release unless the appropriate weather reports or forecasts, or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the alternate weather minimums specified in the certificate holder's operations specifications for that airport when the flight arrives.
121.651 Takeoff and landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.
(a) Notwithstanding any clearance from ATC, no pilot may begin a takeoff in an airplane under IFR when the weather conditions reported by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, are less than those specified in -
(1) The certificate holder's operations specifications; or
(2) Parts 91 and 97 of this chapter, if the certificate holder's operations specifications do not specify takeoff minimums for the airport.
(b) has to do with landing
Looks like according to FAR 121.617 it's logical to think that if your landing mins for the takeoff airport are CatIIIc, then it's do-able - However 121.625 says that you cannot list an alternate if the weather will be below the alternate weather minimums listed in the ops specs for that airport. So, its' logical to conclude that while a "landing" minimums in an ops spec may approve an airport for CatIIIc landing mins, it may also list the same airport as some higher weather mins for using the aiprort as an alternate!?
I would highly doubt that they would let you "massage" the regs like that. I guess it will really boil down to what each carriers ops specs says and whether the Feds have/would approve it! I assume it's some sort of variation to my theory. I may be wrong but hey, I'm not a 121 guy yet either! FWIW.
PS, looks like I'm having a fun filled Sat. night too!!!
91.175 Takeoff and landing under IFR.
... f) Civil airport takeoff minimums.
Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no pilot operating an aircraft under parts 121, 125, 129, or 135 of this chapter may takeoff from a civil airport under IFR unless weather conditions are at or above the weather minimum for IFR takeoff prescribed for that airport under part 97 of this chapter. If takeoff minimums are not prescribed under part 97 of this chapter for a particular airport, the following minimums apply to takeoffs under IFR for aircraft operating under those parts:
(1) For aircraft, other than helicopters, having two engines or less - 1 statute mile visibility.
(2) For aircraft having more than two engines - 1/2 statute mile visibility.
(3) For helicopters - 1/2 statute mile visibility.
121.617 Alternate airport for departure.
(a) If the weather conditions at the airport of takeoff are below the landing minimums in the certificate holder's operations specifications for that airport, no person may dispatch or release an aircraft from that airport unless the dispatch or flight release specifies an alternate airport located within the following distances from the airport of takeoff:
(1) Aircraft having two engines. Not more than one hour from the departure airport at normal cruising speed in still air with one engine inoperative.
(2) Aircraft having three or more engines. Not more than two hours from the departure airport at normal cruising speed in still air with one engine inoperative.
(b) For the purpose of paragraph (a) of this section, the alternate airport weather conditions must meet the requirements of the certificate holder's operations specifications.
(c) No person may dispatch or release an aircraft from an airport unless he lists each required alternate airport in the dispatch or flight release.
FARs - 121.619 Alternate airport for destination: IFR or over the top: Domestic operations.
121.625 Alternate airport weather minimums.
No person may list an airport as an alternate airport in the dispatch or flight release unless the appropriate weather reports or forecasts, or any combination thereof, indicate that the weather conditions will be at or above the alternate weather minimums specified in the certificate holder's operations specifications for that airport when the flight arrives.
121.651 Takeoff and landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.
(a) Notwithstanding any clearance from ATC, no pilot may begin a takeoff in an airplane under IFR when the weather conditions reported by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, are less than those specified in -
(1) The certificate holder's operations specifications; or
(2) Parts 91 and 97 of this chapter, if the certificate holder's operations specifications do not specify takeoff minimums for the airport.
(b) has to do with landing
Looks like according to FAR 121.617 it's logical to think that if your landing mins for the takeoff airport are CatIIIc, then it's do-able - However 121.625 says that you cannot list an alternate if the weather will be below the alternate weather minimums listed in the ops specs for that airport. So, its' logical to conclude that while a "landing" minimums in an ops spec may approve an airport for CatIIIc landing mins, it may also list the same airport as some higher weather mins for using the aiprort as an alternate!?
I would highly doubt that they would let you "massage" the regs like that. I guess it will really boil down to what each carriers ops specs says and whether the Feds have/would approve it! I assume it's some sort of variation to my theory. I may be wrong but hey, I'm not a 121 guy yet either! FWIW.
PS, looks like I'm having a fun filled Sat. night too!!!
02-02-2008, 06:01 PM
#12
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 190
Posts: 82
The way I see it is, TO mins are about taking off, not landing, the TO mins are established according to what visual reference you have when rolling down the runway. They should have nothing to do with what type approach you are capable of. They are printed in black and white on the back of the Airport diagram.
02-02-2008, 06:10 PM
#13
Tri-tanic operator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Doggie
Posts: 2,382
Originally Posted by gijoe411
The way I see it is, TO mins are about taking off, not landing, the TO mins are established according to what visual reference you have when rolling down the runway. They should have nothing to do with what type approach you are capable of. They are printed in black and white on the back of the Airport diagram.
You are correct ...
Apparently the original poster is confusing Takeoff Minimums with Takeoff Alternate Requirements.
Who knows ...
02-02-2008, 06:21 PM
#14
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
I've worked for 3 heavy aircraft carriers, 2 majors and 14 years military heavy flying. In all cases the t/o alternate mins were different and reflected in the ops specs; none below cat I mins. Maybe my experience is different but I don't think this is a valid question, if speaking in generalities. Your t/o alternate minimums are specific to your carrier, your airframe and the associated ops specs. Maybe I'm not following the question?
02-02-2008, 06:22 PM
#15
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 190
Posts: 82
Originally Posted by Photon
on a different note. When you land with CAT IIIc, and you're standing on the runway with absolute 0 visibility (like can't see your arm in front of you type 0/0), how do you taxi without going into the grass?
02-02-2008, 06:24 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: MD-88 F/O
Posts: 123
Well the title of the thread IS "Takeoff alternate legalities question" so I'm assuming that's what they meant. Therefore even though they worte "Takeoff mins" I htink they meant "Takeoff Alternate Requirement" - when/if you need to file a takeoff alternate and so on and so forth.
I'm thinking this person wants to know (hypothetically speaking) if the weather was 0/0 and you're aircraft is capable of 0/0 approaches why you would even have to file a takeoff alternate? What would preclude such a thing?
PS - Besides, I wouldn't want to think all my research was for nothing?
Cactus Crew was keen to spot it! T/O mins vs. Takeoff Alt requirements!
I'm thinking this person wants to know (hypothetically speaking) if the weather was 0/0 and you're aircraft is capable of 0/0 approaches why you would even have to file a takeoff alternate? What would preclude such a thing?
PS - Besides, I wouldn't want to think all my research was for nothing?
Cactus Crew was keen to spot it! T/O mins vs. Takeoff Alt requirements!
02-02-2008, 06:27 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 251
Originally Posted by NotTooBad
I was asked this question by a Capt. who is studying for a mainline interview somewhere. The question was...what are the takeoff minimums for an aircraft certified for Cat IIIc taking off from an airport that is Cat IIIc compliant?
Argument 1: Takeoff mins are 0/0 because they can get back in because that is their lowest mins.
Argument 2: Takeoff mins are the lowest of the Cat I procedures because more than likely if something breaks to warrant an airport return...they probably aren't in a configuration that allows Cat III approaches. (ie Busting an engine on takeoff)
Anyone know that actual truth to this? If someone could provide a resource for this information (even company manuals - not necessarily FAR's) that would be awesome.
Happy thinkin'
Argument 1: Takeoff mins are 0/0 because they can get back in because that is their lowest mins.
Argument 2: Takeoff mins are the lowest of the Cat I procedures because more than likely if something breaks to warrant an airport return...they probably aren't in a configuration that allows Cat III approaches. (ie Busting an engine on takeoff)
Anyone know that actual truth to this? If someone could provide a resource for this information (even company manuals - not necessarily FAR's) that would be awesome.
Happy thinkin'
Well, sounds like the interviewers are throwing a changeup to the applicants. Technically, your takeoff minimums aren't affected by cat 1, 2 or 3 approved airports or procedures. It's all based off of company ops specs and what the airport takeoff minumums are (on airport diagram), whichever is more restrictive (if ops specs allows 600 rvr but airport diagram for a specific rwy says 1000 rvr, the lowest you can use is 1000). So it sounds like they are just manipulating a question to try to throw them off.
Of course this leads into the takeoff alternate question some have brought up. All it leads up to in the current (2008) FAR-FC's is if the WX is below the certificate holders authorized wx minimums (ops specs), then a takeoff alternate is applied. Not sure what some Cat 3 carriers ops specs say on this. Personally, I've always tried to teach my upgrade/transition capts to think outside of the box on this one (CYA, cover your a%$). The reg doesn't say anything about if the wx mins are below the approach mins that you would use to get back into the airport, but just "below the landing minimums for that airport". For example, an apt has a vor appch (1 sm vis needed) and an ILS (1/2 mile needed). If the ILS has a 30 kt tailwind and vis is 3/4 mile, some people would say that it's not below the ILS mins, so no T/O alternate needed. I personally say, if it's below the approach I will use to get back in, I need a T/O alternate (hopefully there's an airport within an hour though). Sorry for the long response.
02-02-2008, 06:50 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: MD-88 F/O
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by EMB120IP
Well, sounds like the interviewers are throwing a changeup to the applicants. Technically, your takeoff minimums aren't affected by cat 1, 2 or 3 approved airports or procedures. It's all based off of company ops specs and what the airport takeoff minumums are (on airport diagram), whichever is more restrictive (if ops specs allows 600 rvr but airport diagram for a specific rwy says 1000 rvr, the lowest you can use is 1000). So it sounds like they are just manipulating a question to try to throw them off.
Of course this leads into the takeoff alternate question some have brought up. All it leads up to in the current (2008) FAR-FC's is if the WX is below the certificate holders authorized wx minimums (ops specs), then a takeoff alternate is applied. Not sure what some Cat 3 carriers ops specs say on this. Personally, I've always tried to teach my upgrade/transition capts to think outside of the box on this one (CYA, cover your a%$). The reg doesn't say anything about if the wx mins are below the approach mins that you would use to get back into the airport, but just "below the landing minimums for that airport". For example, an apt has a vor appch (1 sm vis needed) and an ILS (1/2 mile needed). If the ILS has a 30 kt tailwind and vis is 3/4 mile, some people would say that it's not below the ILS mins, so no T/O alternate needed. I personally say, if it's below the approach I will use to get back in, I need a T/O alternate (hopefully there's an airport within an hour though). Sorry for the long response.
Of course this leads into the takeoff alternate question some have brought up. All it leads up to in the current (2008) FAR-FC's is if the WX is below the certificate holders authorized wx minimums (ops specs), then a takeoff alternate is applied. Not sure what some Cat 3 carriers ops specs say on this. Personally, I've always tried to teach my upgrade/transition capts to think outside of the box on this one (CYA, cover your a%$). The reg doesn't say anything about if the wx mins are below the approach mins that you would use to get back into the airport, but just "below the landing minimums for that airport". For example, an apt has a vor appch (1 sm vis needed) and an ILS (1/2 mile needed). If the ILS has a 30 kt tailwind and vis is 3/4 mile, some people would say that it's not below the ILS mins, so no T/O alternate needed. I personally say, if it's below the approach I will use to get back in, I need a T/O alternate (hopefully there's an airport within an hour though). Sorry for the long response.
If the regs says the wx mins are "below the landing minimums for that airport" then I think they want to know what happens if the landing mins are CatIIIc - effectively 0! Why would you then need a takeoff alternate if you are NEVER below mins departing?
FAR 121.625 spells it out and you're correct - the Ops Specs should/would regulate when a takeoff alternate is required regardless of the landing criteria capability of the aircraft. So if a CatIIIc aircraft IS capable of landing in 0/0 it doesn't mean that it would NEVER need a takeoff alternate because the ops specs I would imagine overide that CATIIIc approach minimum and make the takeoff alternate requirement determination from some higher limit for a increased margin of safety?
02-02-2008, 06:51 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: A300CAP
Posts: 479
Takeoff minimums are either published, or lower than standard minimums can be used if authorized by company procedures. A takeoff alternate is required anytime you cant land at the airport you are departing from, using any approach the aircraft and crew are certified for. The possibiity always exists that landing capability will degrade based on aircraft equipment failures or subsequent lowering of prevailing visibility after takeoff, but none of that matters as far as legality is concerned.
02-02-2008, 06:56 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: A300CAP
Posts: 479
Originally Posted by EMB120IP
Well, sounds like the interviewers are throwing a changeup to the applicants. Technically, your takeoff minimums aren't affected by cat 1, 2 or 3 approved airports or procedures. It's all based off of company ops specs and what the airport takeoff minumums are (on airport diagram), whichever is more restrictive (if ops specs allows 600 rvr but airport diagram for a specific rwy says 1000 rvr, the lowest you can use is 1000). So it sounds like they are just manipulating a question to try to throw them off.
Of course this leads into the takeoff alternate question some have brought up. All it leads up to in the current (2008) FAR-FC's is if the WX is below the certificate holders authorized wx minimums (ops specs), then a takeoff alternate is applied. Not sure what some Cat 3 carriers ops specs say on this. Personally, I've always tried to teach my upgrade/transition capts to think outside of the box on this one (CYA, cover your a%$). The reg doesn't say anything about if the wx mins are below the approach mins that you would use to get back into the airport, but just "below the landing minimums for that airport". For example, an apt has a vor appch (1 sm vis needed) and an ILS (1/2 mile needed). If the ILS has a 30 kt tailwind and vis is 3/4 mile, some people would say that it's not below the ILS mins, so no T/O alternate needed. I personally say, if it's below the approach I will use to get back in, I need a T/O alternate (hopefully there's an airport within an hour though). Sorry for the long response.
Of course this leads into the takeoff alternate question some have brought up. All it leads up to in the current (2008) FAR-FC's is if the WX is below the certificate holders authorized wx minimums (ops specs), then a takeoff alternate is applied. Not sure what some Cat 3 carriers ops specs say on this. Personally, I've always tried to teach my upgrade/transition capts to think outside of the box on this one (CYA, cover your a%$). The reg doesn't say anything about if the wx mins are below the approach mins that you would use to get back into the airport, but just "below the landing minimums for that airport". For example, an apt has a vor appch (1 sm vis needed) and an ILS (1/2 mile needed). If the ILS has a 30 kt tailwind and vis is 3/4 mile, some people would say that it's not below the ILS mins, so no T/O alternate needed. I personally say, if it's below the approach I will use to get back in, I need a T/O alternate (hopefully there's an airport within an hour though). Sorry for the long response.
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