What's being done about the airline exec's?
 

I laugh when I hear crusty old pilots complain that the pilots of LCCs are the downfall of the profession and how LCCs are the downfall of the industry. As they complain about LCCs and their pilots their execs are laughing all the way to the bank! What is being done about these execs stealing company money right after pilots and other employees give back over a decades worth of contract negotiations? Where is the outrage and outcries over United, USAir, and American pulling the wool over the eyes of the courts? I've heard VERY little from ALPA and APA over these type of events!!!:mad: Why doesn't anyone stand up and "protect the profession". The airline execs must love hearing when we blame LCCs and their pilots as the reason we have to give back money.

American Airlines CEO defends executive bonuses

DALLAS (AP) — Bonuses for about 1,000 executives at American Airlines could be worth more than $70 million at the parent company's current stock price, and the airline's chief executive publicly defended the payments, which drew howls of protest from union leaders this month.
Executives with parent AMR still declined to put a dollar figure on the payments, but they said Wednesday that there are 2.2 million bonus units, valued much like shares of stock.

Each unit will be multiplied by 175% and then multiplied again by the stock price. The 175% multiplier will be used because AMR's stock rose more than other U.S. airline stocks from 2003 through the end of 2005.

On Wednesday, AMR shares closed at $18.71, and the average of high and low prices was $19.32. At that level, Executive Vice President Daniel P.
Garton's 44,000 units would be worth more than $1.5 million, and three other executives would get more than $1 million. The smallest payments, 50 units, would be about $1,700.

Those amounts have declined since the issue erupted into a major controversy at the Fort Worth-based carrier early this month because AMR's stock price has slipped, making each unit less valuable.

Chairman and Chief Executive Gerard Arpey, who did not take part in the current bonus program, said Wednesday that the payments are part of executives' compensation and are designed to base part of their pay on AMR's performance. He said that since 2001, those employees "have seen a substantial reduction in overall compensation" because stock-based payouts were low.

"The payments are much higher (this year) because our stock is much higher,"
Arpey said.

The payouts — company officials don't use the term "bonuses" — bloomed into a controversy early this month when the size of the largest payouts became apparent. They protested that the bonuses were poorly timed because AMR has lost more than $7 billion since the start of 2001.

Members of American's three unions narrowly approved $1.6 billion in annual pay cuts and other concessions in 2003, when the company was on the brink of bankruptcy. As part of the deal, the company gave them stock options that AMR estimated this month to be worth more than $568 million when they vest in April.

Officials for the unions did not immediately return calls for comment on Wednesday.

Executives
 

I think they are being punished with another pay raise.

SkyHigh

Great another great pay out for the top 1% of Americans while the rest starve and suffer through pay cuts. What is the deal, why do all of us stand here and due nothing. Oh wait we did due something, we elected an adminstration that loves doing that themselves. Can we say haliburton!!!!!

CEO Bonues
 

I've heard VERY little from ALPA and APA over these type of events!!!:mad: Why doesn't anyone stand up and "protect the profession". The airline execs must love hearing when we blame LCCs and their pilots as the reason we have to give back money.[/QUOTE]

Fly 4 Beer

ALPA (Duane Worthe's testimony on Capital Hill has raise this point many times) however ALPA can't stop this. Only the Shareholders can and they continue to allow it!. I can't fathom this but they do.

And just for clarification, the Corp Execs get these wonderful perks because they all have CONTRACTS!. Yeap they all have individual contracts that spell out these generous salaries and bonuses and other perks. Isn't it ironic that when a company is in Finacial disarray and employess are taking up the A##, the Corp execs get millions.......all financed by the give backs of the working man.
Is it right that these folks get 300-400% pay above all other company employees, especially when employees are giving back 30-50% in pay and benefits? Not in my opinion but my opinion doesn't count. As long as the Shareholders allow this, it will continue. Don't blame ALPA

So do you not think that work groups who work for considerably less money then their peers at other airlines don't have an impact on the industry? Come on now that's just silly talk and I'm not just talking about pilot pay either.

Here's a thought. If the LCCs do it so much better then the rest why can't they pay their employees the same amount. :confused: I have this discussion with one of my buddies and all he says is that we have to stay competitive. :confused: :confused: but I thought they did it so much better than the others and that's how they stayed competitive.

Since we are pilots let me mention this. 3rd yr CA pay at jetblue was about the same as 3rd yr FO pay at NWA, how does this not have a negative impact on the industry. CA pay alone just about covered the cost of both crew members at jetblue. How does the pay on the 190 compare to similar sized airplanes that were flown at the majors. ie. small DC-9/737. I'm betting that these things make a difference.

I don't think our negociators ever discussed what other airline CEO's made during contract negociations but they did mention what other pilots made quite a bit.

eric

[[COLOR="Blue"]Eric Stratton]So do you not think that work groups who work for considerably less money then their peers at other airlines don't have an impact on the industry? Come on now that's just silly talk and I'm not just talking about pilot pay either.


Good Post Eric.

For all those who disagree................ask yourself what you will do when MGT comes to you (and they will come) asks for pay and concessions when the next new Start up comes in with even a lower pay scale!

The dominos continue to fall.........What happens when JB becomes the highest paid (by default) Will the JB pilots be happy when Brand X start up pays their New 737 CAPTs $40/hr.

For the record, I am not picking on JB or it's pilots. I am just trying to make a point and continue what Eric Stratton point was.

Heck............look at Southwest. They are the highest paid Narrowbody Pilots of US carriers.........by default. It doesn't take a genius to predict what will happen to Southwest Pilot's pay after all the Legacy carriers finish Chainsawing their contracts and more and more start ups enter the market with low paying jobs.

Again...........I mean no disrepect to the Southwest Pilots. I truly hope they can hold on to their payscales and improve their retirement plan..............

Something to think about that Im sure has already been thought....

We talk about LCC pilots willing to work for so much less. But if you have no job and a family isnt a job be it a lower paying job still a job? If I am a trained pilot that couldnt find work or was furloughed from a legacy if I had a family you could put good money on my resume going out to everybody and anybody accpeting it. Anybody have any thoughts?

Depends.....................

Ask yourself whay most people wanted to become an Airline Pilot in the first place.

Love of Fying
Good Pay and Benefits
Potential of Time off with Family
All of the above.

For me it was Mostly Good pay and Benefits with the Time off.............or simply Put Quality of life. I got all the love of flying I needed in the USMC:(

When I was getting out of the Marines.............
If all I had to look forward to was making $55/hour as a Captain and working 18 days a month I would have chosen a diiferent career path.

Most young pilots who come from the civilian ranks (and some former Military) are willing to work slave wages as a CFI and then move on to slightly above slave wages to work Regional Airline (Formerly calle a Commuter)

The reason for this was................They were building their time and getting experience to some day work for the Big Airlines foramlly called the Legacy carriers.

Very similiar to an aspiring Professional Baseball player........out of College to playing for the Minors for a couple years..........Minors or AA players aren't paid worth a S#&T. They travel in Greyhound buses & stay in motel 6's.
Why do they put up with this? They pay their dues for a shot in the BIG leagues. That is how things were in the Airline industry......................................If things keep going the way they are, there won't be a BIG League Airline to Aspire to.

If I was a young pilot getting out of the Military now..................I would probably choose a different career path................but that is just me.

What's being done about airline exec's
 

Depends.....................

Ask yourself whay most people wanted to become an Airline Pilot in the first place.

Love of Fying
Good Pay and Benefits
Potential of Time off with Family
All of the above.

For me it was Mostly Good pay and Benefits with the Time off.............or simply Put Quality of life. I got all the love of flying I needed in the USMC:(

When I was getting out of the Marines.............
If all I had to look forward to was making $55/hour as a Captain and working 18 days a month I would have chosen a diiferent career path.

Most young pilots who come from the civilian ranks (and some former Military) are willing to work slave wages as a CFI and then move on to slightly above slave wages to work Regional Airline (Formerly calle a Commuter)

The reason for this was................They were building their time and getting experience to some day work for the Big Airlines foramlly called the Legacy carriers.

Very similiar to an aspiring Professional Baseball player........out of College to playing for the Minors for a couple years..........Minors or AA players aren't paid worth a S#&T. They travel in Greyhound buses & stay in motel 6's.
Why do they put up with this? They pay their dues for a shot in the BIG leagues. That is how things were in the Airline industry......................................If things keep going the way they are, there won't be a BIG League Airline to Aspire to.

If I was a young pilot getting out of the Military now..................I would probably choose a different career path................but that is just me.

What's being done about the airline exec's?

Not a damn thing obviously.

Once again we defer the issue to other pilots. If the legacy pilots didn't roll over and play dead everytime pay cuts are proposed maybe there would be more pressure on LCCs to pay more if they want to continue to hire 500+ a year. Instead, pilots take paycuts and the company goes into Ch 11 anyway or execs take the little profits there are. ALPA screwed up when they gave in at Delta this last paycut. Givebacks aren't helping the company anyway. **** has a strike lost it's luster? Here's a wild concept - Delta pilots stike to stop paycuts, other ALPA/union/non-union pilots support them with slowdowns and work actions. All of a sudden the industry halts and we have a voice. But guess what, it'll never happen because those crusty old pilots I mentioned earlier care too much about their own wellfare and pensions to risk ANYTHING! Pilots protecting the profession my A$$. Fix the problems at your own airlines and the LCCs will have to follow. It is alot easier for LCCs to pay lower wages since they know the rest of the indusrty will come down to their levels. Stop the trend at the top.
Second how can LCC pilots do anything while their payrates go up (slowly), benefits and work rules improve, and the management doesn't steal from the company?
Lastly a 3rd year A320 FO at Northwest makes $77/hr while a 3rd year Capt at JB makes $116 before any 150% premium time. Lets compare apples to apples before making stupid comments about comparing pay. Don't forget that pilots at JB can upgrade in 2-2.5 years and about the same at AirTran. That isn't happening at NWA. As for the E190 pay JB pilots haven't stopped pushing for better rates and management knows that. If I had to bet I would bet on those going up within a year. Its a brand new airplane, flown by mainline JB pilots who will upgrade to CA in less then 12 months and can be 320 CAs in 12-18 mos after that. I haven't heard anything about NEWCO being flown by current NWA pilots. Lets see what those payrates will be and what ALPA will do about it.

I now will step down from my soapbox.....

We are all in this fight together, us verse the execs - and we are losing!!!. Lets stick together and support pilots who are losing pay/benefits and help LCC pilots to fight for more $$$. Direct the anger at the execs not at your bros/sisters.

Exec Pay
 

The executives get paid more for shrinking the bottom line and creating a profitable company in the face of great adversity. Why get all upset about a tiny handful of suits? They are only doing what the shareholders want from them. Every industry has a small army of suits and most get paid well. Pilots are a dime a dozen. They are so plentiful in fact that every HR department has thousands of identical resumes on file. There are only so many fortune magazine cover boys to go around. Would you really like to trade places with them? They have a much smaller chance of making it to the big time than we do. Pilots seem to have an unbalanced view of themselves. For some reason they feel that they have a greater value and intellect when in fact they just drive the bus and that is all. I can't recall a baggage handler getting upset about executive pay.

SKyHigh

Once again you've made a post that lacks credibility. They do get upset, believe me. A friend of mine was President of a local at JFK/LGA airport before he recently retired, and trust me, they do care.

They just don't have a forum like this one to post their complaints .... or at least one that I am aware of.

Agreed
 

Could not have said it any better myself. If everyone is so upset with the pilot profession, and so envious of exec pay, then try to become an executive. But remember, roll the dice. What are your odds?

Ok
 

Alright, so now we have a confirmed event of discontent among a few baggage handlers. I still don't think that most concern themselves about such things. The ones who were employed at Alaska are more concerned with trying to find another job right now. My point is that executives have a completely different job than pilots. They put in an unlimited number of hours and decades to become one of the lucky few to reach that level of compensation. Executives are promoted based upon performance and not on successfully outliving their predecessor's. They have a thinking mans job and the outcome of their efforts can lead a company to ruin or success. Stockholders will pay for business talent. They will not pay much for another pilot. After all they can only fly one plane at a time. No matter how much we would like to think otherwise flying is a vocation, and not a discipline. Flying is a skill, and not an art.

SkyHigh

My first post in the Majors!!!:)

Flying not an art?:confused:

I'm sorry, stick and rudder is skill, but decision making is art (call it experience, but definately not a skill). One day the autopilot will click off unexpectedly and a wake-up call will be heard by those who think that pilots are a dime-a-dozen.

Both are required to be successful.

Decisions ?
 

By the time you make it to the majors you will have kept your feet on the floor for several years by then. (no rudder skills required) The plane will evaluate your stick inputs and decide whether to implement them or not (fly by wire) There are few actual flying skills are required and most decisions are made by people on the ground or by manuals and procedures. Your goal will be to reach the highest level of human automation. No art no thinking, sorry.

SkyHigh

No art no thinking
 

Not to get on a soap box about the other BS your spreading, if I have time I'll do that later;) Regarding stick and rudder skills; I'll ask you this, "how did you land that 757 you flew when the wind was other than straight down the runway??". Earlier this week I had 300K of jet bouncing and rolling in a x-wind that no computer could deal with. My feet were working like a fish jumping out of water, all to keep my a/c straight down a runway with gusty 30+ kts of wind. No art no thinking. right!:mad:

I guess, pilot hating SkyHigh is posting today. We're dumb, we're plentiful, we're greedy, oh yes, and almost forgot, we're going to be replaced by a computer!:eek:

Well Said !
 

Thanks man ! Well done.

SkyHigh

Pilots
 

Pilots are all supermen of uncommon skills and abilities. They are the most celebrated of professions and deserve the highest levels of respect and compensation. The country should take notice and bow to the blessings of those brave men of the sky.

Does that help?

SKyHigh

Pay @ Airlines
 

Well heres my thought on the matter. I have always liked looking at this in a level of responsibility. If an executive makes a mistake it might put a company on the rocks, he11 it might even cost a couple hundred jobs, but if you do the same they could be looking for an equal number of body bags (if there are any body's left to bury).

Remember that a surgeon might make 300K a year but he too only has 1 life to handle at a time. With the new 380 on the market, you could easliy kill 500 in one afternoon. I think that kind of responsibility requires a little more compensation.

XtremeF150

I don't think anyone questions the level of responsibility or headaches (most) executives have...

What burns me is the amount of compensation they get in relation to the TINY PERCENTAGE of personnel they represent...a TINY FRACTION of employees get a MONSTER SHARE in compensation...:mad:

How can they DARE to collect MILLIONS when companies are in BANKRUPTCY, and Joe-Schmoe ramp agent, customer service rep, baggage handler, dispatcher, and yes...pilot employee has to take a 40% paycut?? COME ON...:mad:

This has NOTHING to do with how much pilots make, or how prestigious we think our jobs are, or how important we may think we are...this has to do with ETHICS...the average employee takes massive paycuts, and these buttheads get away with MILLIONS!!! :mad:

Sorry, Skyhigh, even you can't be THAT jaded.

Jaded
 

It has nothing to do with being jaded. Mike Jordan pulled in the big bucks because people would pay to see him. Companies pay executives the big bucks because someone thinks they are worth it. If they don't shell out the cash the fear is that they will leave. It seems that chapter 11 executives are worth more. I am not jaded just have what I think is a clear view of the situation.

SkyHigh

Jobs
 

Lots of jobs have a similar level of responsibility: school bus drivers, soldiers, ferry boat captains, train engineers, cops, school teachers, regional airline pilots, airline mechanics and none of them ever expects to earn 300k per year.

SkyHigh

We aren't supermen skyhigh.....maybe god-like would explain it better. Hmmm yeah that sounds about right.

Oh and before you put your life savings into microsoft just remember computers and equipment break and have flaws. Now maybe not all the time but they do. For further info google these topics:

Apollo 13, jet blue landing gear stuck down, blue screen of death, y2k, the blackout of 2003, etc.

Points
 

I appreciate the point that you are making however in the current world manual flying skills are rapidly becoming an emergency proceedure. Soon if the computer crashes so will the plane.

SkyHigh

I agree... I have many friends who have type rattings and when I asked them what do the have to do for the sim portions they say well you get about 10 min of flying then they start trying to kill you.

Am I reading this right you blame delta pilots for your pay? huh. Isn't delta pay still above most LCC's except southwest even after pay cuts. Maybe the LCC's would pay more if they didn't have thousands of apps on file waiting for the job.

I don't think a strike has lost it's luster and I assume you expect jetblue to strike soon seen as how they have been making money for the last 5 years and will be the new airline to set the bar for pay.

I highly doubt other airlines would have a work slowdown or action in support delta but I get where you are coming from.

You said to fix the problems at your own airline but don't you think that the LCC's have more problems that they need to fix. If their pay were in line delta, management couldn't use them as an example of what others are getting paid.

You asked what can LCC's do about their pay when management doesn't screw them? How much did Airtran management take this past year in bonus's? Refer to your question about a strike losing it's luster and when did pilot pay become a matter of how much management makes?


The northwest pay was comparing the 2 before 2 rounds of pay cuts and at northwest you didn't have to upgrade to make jetblue or airtran captain rates. 150% premium pay kicked in at what 70+ hours? Yeah they got paid what the rest did for the first 70 hours.

Pilots are getting their arses handed to them because we aren't 1 group (like ALPA likes to say) and there are thousands out there willing to do it for less then what we are currently getting paid. I'm all for supporting my brothers and sisters but if they show up working for roughly 60% pay and glad to do it, it's time to have a discussion.

makes me wonder if the only solution is to have all pilots get together nationally and enforce nationally recognized pay standards.

Good Luck With That.
 

If that were in force then most of us would get the privilage of paying our $250 per year dues to preserve the pay and benifits of a few senior guys at the majors. Most pilots will never make it to the big time. The only option that most have is to play low ball.

SkyHigh

Stick and Rudder
 

Instead of stick and rudder it should be called button and dial. The innovation and joy of flying is totally lost in most modern planes.

SkyHigh

When they came out with the modern airliners (727, and dc-10s) most accidenst were the result of the pilot trying to fly by the seat of his pants instead of flying the profile.

You have to take a trade off. if you want to see the world get used to the buttons. If you want to be a barnstormer an airline isn't for you. Isnt funny Ill sit in the seneca and my student and I drool at the faster planes climbing up and over us; from what I know seems like most airline pilots that arer passing us look at our planes and get nostalgic of the good ol days of actully seeing the ground when you flew.

Change happens you can not complain about it. In 20 years itll be different again. It doesnt matter if its an airplane or cell phone or tv or computer. Might as well be telling us about how you had to walk up hill both ways in the snow to go use the outhouse. But me I live in florida there is no hills and Im still wearing my shorts in janurary.

Well its late and Ive been studying all day. (and on my day off too) I hope I stayed on topic.

and maybe you could go and get a job as a regional FO and be able to support a family instead of waiting to cross a picket line...

I'm curious what button did I pushed to stop from landing in the grass during strong and very gusty crosswinds this past week...:rolleyes:

It's the "good judgement" button. After all, everything's so automated that the pilot isn't required anymore. :)

According to some, anyway.

Judgement
 

Sounds like a bad decision earlier forced the better decision later. There is a button for that situation as well and it is called the Go-Around button.

SkyHigh

True
 

True statement. I don't think I was complaining about it. It seems that some of the younger set have an inaccurate view of what goes on in the flight deck of a modern plane. As you know the index finger gets most of the action these days. Actual piloting skills are becoming a thing of the past. As you mentioned I expect that the biggest change in 20 years will be that the flight will be managed from the ground and the pilots will be there for need of circuit breaker reset. I didn't enjoy that part of the airlines that much, however it is safer.

Working as an airline pilot today is a heavily scripted procedure driven feat of human automation. Very little skill or thinking is required. The only thing that really matters is if the data base is up to date and if you have the latest revision in your manual..

SkyHigh

Eric
 

Eric,

That is my point exactly. If you work to set up a national system like this then the pilots at the top will sell you out as a regional FO. They do it all the time. There would not be a shared system of power. Their rationale would be that they are working to preserve your future, but most of us will never get there anyway. As a regional FO you will suffer with lowest wages while the son's of major airline captains pass you by and go on to enjoy a stable job and great pay. The whole idea is reminiscent of communism and we all know how that turned out.

In a way we all have to cross that picket line. Most would tell you that by working for a regional for slave wages that you are bringing the system down. However if you don't your dream will not be worth 2 cents. If you are lucky then after a few years you might get a chance at an LCC and you will cross that line again. Most of us are outsiders. We don't have friends in high places. We were not able to join the military superstar ranks. Our chances have been greatly discounted from the start. The advent of the regional airline is the only thing that opened up the majors as even a possibility for outsiders. Before then no one even thought about it unless you were from a well known aviation legacy or privileged military clan. If you bow down now to those in power they will thank you for streamlining the "good ol boy network" and wish you the "best of luck".

Besides I too was a Regional FO who was trying to support a new family. I realised long ago that it is a loosing proposition. You might have to cross a line.

SkyHigh