WAFP -

"Fourth. To address the Pilot vs Officer debate, I don't agree that your flying career should be based on your ability to whip out a PowerPoint slide show better than any other officer. Flying upgrades should be based soley on that, FLYING! I have seen many a great pilot get hosed because they didn't do a great office job, and seen too many schmucks get upgraded because they kissed the right butt. That is a flaw in the military system."

Well that first sentence kind of makes my point then. We're not talking about your FLYING career, we're talking about your MILITARY career.

Unless the USAF or the FRED community is different from a lot of the military, you're going to spend quite a few years in a staff job whipping out numerous PowerPoint presentations. So if you want that good fitrep - your graphs had better be complete with multiple colors and various fonts!

Agree wholly that FLYING upgrades should be based on FLYING (section lead, division lead, NVG(I), LATT(I), SFTI, ACTI, etc....), but then we aren't talking about promotion then are we? And since the military is an up or out system - if you don't promote (which has to do with your total job - not just flying) then you will need to leave. I know LOTS of excellent pilots who didn't make rank too.

It has been a good thread.

USMCFLYR

Hey, that's what we're here for!?... ;)

Beauty of the Reserves/ANG
 

I have been a AF Reserve pilot for 16 years and never been REQUIRED to do office work or kiss much butt to get upgraded/promoted. I think the purist appreciates the opportunity. After all, isn't/wasn't the MISSION to "Fly, Fight, and Win." Now I have to get mothers (TACC) permission for what used to be Aircraft Commanders decision making. I was complaining to a TACC controller and he said the young pilots call to "ask permission to fart."

Reason #14,339 why I want out of AD:cool:

It used to be. Now it's 40-some words that dillute the intent to the point it sounds like "To kill them with boredom by powerpoint. And if not, it's OK as long as I climb the food chain BTZ." Maybe someday someone will change it back and make it clear.

Dude, I don't know what USAF you are in, but in the C-130 world, we don't have your version of utopia. When I was a sq chief pilot, trying to make those "right" decisions you said were made on who upgraded, I was routinely overridden by my commander and DO so that their little buddies or butt boy kiss a$$ favorite son types could move up and "check the right sqaure." You know the response I got when I explained in 56 different ways person x was not ready for acft cc school:"I don't want to hurt his career, or he needs this for XX job."

So buddy, do all us other mil guys a favor and speak only for your little corner of the world, as I do only for my corner of the herk word.

USMCFLYR - there you go again with common sense, it has no place in the military, where a LTC with 2000 hours and no flying skill commands a group of passed over 5000 hour majors.

Look at the bright side.

The 2000 Hr Lt Col and 5000 Hr Majors get to work for the 1500 Hr Below the Zone "Golden boy" O-6 Wing Commander who has spent half of his career at the 5-sided wind tunnel making the General's coffee and the other half at school in residence.

That's true leadership!

WAFP

While I like your "merit based upgrades" idea in theory, it just wouldn't work in the airlines. Here's a couple reasons why:

- Unlike in my military squadron, no airline management types even know my name. There are 7000+ pilots at my company (soon to be a lot more assuming the merger goes through). In a military squadron, your reputation is made or broken to people you know...they work with you every day and repeatedly. Dudes who actually KNOW you make the upgrade (or not) decision. In a mil squadron, if you're a clown, everyone knows it. If you're a hero, everyone knows it. In this industry, unless you screw up huge, relatively few people even know who you are, let alone what your act is. There's not much opportunity to prove you are a hero as a first officer to standout against everyone else competitively. Let's face it, this job is not crazy tough. It's not like we're going into combat or anything. I takeoff, fly part of the departure on the flight director, then turn the auto pilot on, then click it off in time to land. If I'm not flying the leg, I flip gear, run checklists, and try not to make radio calls on 121.5. Hard to prove how exceptionally great I am doing that and to stand out, but on the contrary it's easy to show I'm a clown if I screw up all the time. Point is...difficult to prove "merit" to earn a merit based upgrade. Most dudes are not screwups...how do you fairly rack and stack those dudes? If, based on your example, there was a gradesheet or critique or something of the sort filled out on each first officer after each flight, realistically you'd find that they would all be very strong after a while and impossible to stratify dudes off of. Now you're back to the same problem you had before...how do you fairly rack and stack dudes for upgrade who are all similarly qualified on paper? It's not quite the same as comparing a few dudes in a squadron who everyone knows and everyone flies with all the time.

- Unlike the military where dudes usually go off to AETC or school or desk job throughout a 20 year career (so for arguments sake let's call it 14 years in a major weapons system in a career, while having to start over in the upgrade flow each time you return), in the airlines dudes do nothing but fly for potentially a 30+ year career. No starting over from the bottom as a wingman or co-pilot after a white jet tour or school/staff because you never leave the cockpit! These other jobs that mil dudes return from give you a constant feed of co-pilots beyond just lieutenants out of UPT. THAT is what balances your letter of Xs and enables relatively young dudes to upgrade to AC. Caveman math would tell you that about half the dudes in the airlines need to be right seaters. Dudes can be (and are) ready for the captain upgrade well before they get there. They have plenty of experience. But you are either a captain or first officer, you are not both. We can't upgrade everyone to captain after a couple years, even if they are "ready." We'd have no one left to fly the right seat. And no, we can't afford to upgrade dudes to captain but then have them fly the right seat part of the time to make up that difference. It costs too much and we can't make any money as it is. This is a business, after all.

- In the airlines, it is either about $ or quality of life. Lots of dudes don't bid to captain, even if they could, so they can be more senior therefore and bid better schedules as a first officer. This is their choice. On the contrary, some dudes bid to captain as early as they can, and therefore make more money, but they return to the bottom of the seniority totem pole in their respective aircraft/base/seat and accept the less-than-ideal schedules that may bring. By your merit based theory, what happens to dudes who turn down the upgrade when offered? There are far more dudes "qualified" and "ready" to be captain in the airlines than there are left seats, and many of those dudes intentionally choose not to upgrade when able for a variety of reasons.

-Think of it this way: what if all heavy co-pilots in the AF throughout all the airframes were lumped in to one big pot for upgrade competition, then you had to send in all their gradesheets and some dude at HQ AMC who didn't know any of them personally decided who made the cut? That would suck, wouldn't it? That's pretty much what you are proposing for the airlines.

-I do miss the challenge and competition of merit based upgrades. I think the competition gives dudes incentive to perform better, but it just wouldn't work on the large scale operation that airlines are. It would add way more politics and company bullsh-t into the mix than anyone could stand. Unlike the military, "shut up an color" or "service before self" or "needs of the AF" won't fly around here. Then everyone would be bitter and sue because they thought they deserved to upgrade but got passed over. Unlike the military, captain PAYS MUCH, MUCH MORE, so an upgrade means a lot more to dude's lives than just the seat you fly in and the X on your letter of Xs.

-Truth is, pretty much everyone that upgrades to captain at major airlines is highly qualified and beyond ready. I'm sure there are plenty of stories out there of no talent a$$ clowns/total idiots/*********s that are captains in the airlines (so you can spare the rebuttal stories fellas), but you know as well as I do that there are plenty of the same that upgrade in the military, merit based upgrade or not.

Having just made the leap, it's a different world out here.

Tbone F15 You said it wonderfully! I worked for a non-sked that used "merit based upgrade" and it was just an ass kissing contest. Eventually the management there instituted a seniority list because even they could see the system was innappropriate to an air carrier situation. And don't anybody try to blame it on a union, that place stayed non-union another ten years after that.