Pilots claim airliners forced to fly with low fuel
04-16-2008, 11:06 AM
#1
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Pilots claim airliners forced to fly with low fuel
From NBC News:
As cash-strapped airlines pack more passengers on flights into ever-busier airports, pilots are filing internal complaints warning that airline cost-cutting on fuel supplies could be creating a major safety risk.
The complaints, compiled by msnbc.com and NBC News from a database of safety incident reports maintained on behalf of the Federal Aviation Administration, reveal wide-ranging concern among pilots that airlines are compelling them to fly with too little fuel.
American Airlines expects to spend $9.3 billion on fuel this year, 39 percent more than last year, said Andy Backover, a company spokesman.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24034468/
As cash-strapped airlines pack more passengers on flights into ever-busier airports, pilots are filing internal complaints warning that airline cost-cutting on fuel supplies could be creating a major safety risk.
The complaints, compiled by msnbc.com and NBC News from a database of safety incident reports maintained on behalf of the Federal Aviation Administration, reveal wide-ranging concern among pilots that airlines are compelling them to fly with too little fuel.
American Airlines expects to spend $9.3 billion on fuel this year, 39 percent more than last year, said Andy Backover, a company spokesman.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24034468/
04-16-2008, 11:20 AM
#3
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Easier said than done. Pilots are routinely fired for not falling in line. But of course that is never given as the reason for the termination. They just wait till your next sim ride and make sure you don't pass. If they want somebody gone bad enough, nothing you or the union can do will save your job.
04-16-2008, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Packer Backer
Easier said than done. Pilots are routinely fired for not falling in line. But of course that is never given as the reason for the termination. They just wait till your next sim ride and make sure you don't pass. If they want somebody gone bad enough, nothing you or the union can do will save your job.
04-16-2008, 11:39 AM
#5
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It seems as though these pilots do not understand their authority. Now the public has the very wrong impression about this situation. Could you imagine going to court over a job termination for not releasing the parking because you did not have enough fuel and you were fired? It will not happen. If you know your job, your airplane and your authority it does not happen. Now, I have known many captains that have decided to choose the wrong battle or wrong (inappropriate) time to decided to act like a Captain and have lost ( I feel rightfully so) and that have had to explain themselves. In almost all cases it was explained away as managements fault or they are forcing me! Even the rare occassion where they learned something new. I am not sure where flight crews feel they don't have to answer to anyone from management? They sign the paycheck, it is their company and I have black and white rules that need to be met and after that it is professionalism and sound judgment that prevails. I have never in my experience as a 121 Captain and LCA had to explain my position about anything to do with safety and my comfort level. Maybe I am lucky?
04-16-2008, 11:46 AM
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This is a classic example of where theory differs greatly from reality.
Theory: the PIC has the final say
Ultimately, the theory is true. But the company may just make sure that is the PIC's last flight.
Reality (as I have witnessed happen): dispatcher flat out refuses to add more fuel and cites new company fuel initiative (that was 'officially' meant to be a guideline only) as the basis for his refusal. Captain gets on cell phone and after a few calls up the chain, gets the 2,000 lbs more that he wanted. This takes about 20-25 minutes total and results in a late departure.
This is what the Captain is supposed to do, exercise his judgement and make the tough calls. In reality though, how often is this going to happen? I think it is designed to be an intentionally frustrating experience so that crews will stop trying to get additional fuel. Before you know it, if certain captains make this a routine occurrence, they will be branded as disruptive and have all manner of NOIs brought against them.
There is also another viewpoint that some have- ask and if refused then go and divert as necessary. Not the best tactic, but one they hope may cause the company to take note of the increased cost of diverions.
Theory: the PIC has the final say
Ultimately, the theory is true. But the company may just make sure that is the PIC's last flight.
Reality (as I have witnessed happen): dispatcher flat out refuses to add more fuel and cites new company fuel initiative (that was 'officially' meant to be a guideline only) as the basis for his refusal. Captain gets on cell phone and after a few calls up the chain, gets the 2,000 lbs more that he wanted. This takes about 20-25 minutes total and results in a late departure.
This is what the Captain is supposed to do, exercise his judgement and make the tough calls. In reality though, how often is this going to happen? I think it is designed to be an intentionally frustrating experience so that crews will stop trying to get additional fuel. Before you know it, if certain captains make this a routine occurrence, they will be branded as disruptive and have all manner of NOIs brought against them.
There is also another viewpoint that some have- ask and if refused then go and divert as necessary. Not the best tactic, but one they hope may cause the company to take note of the increased cost of diverions.
04-16-2008, 12:01 PM
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I'm happy to say that those who have empowered me to captain their jets during the past 25 plus years have never questioned my decision about my fuel uplift.
After all, a few extra pounds of gas if far cheaper than diverting... especially during international operations. But then again sometimes tuition comes at a very expensive price.
After all, a few extra pounds of gas if far cheaper than diverting... especially during international operations. But then again sometimes tuition comes at a very expensive price.
04-16-2008, 12:01 PM
#8
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Hum, if airlines would simply pass the cost of fuel on to the consumer like every other business in this country this wouldnt be such a big deal.
and I am not sure what you mean by "cracked" all crude oil must be refined and cracked into different products .... it doesnt come out of the ground and straight into the tank.....
Heck I dont like paying 3.20 a gallon for gasoline but when you think about it..... its a petroleum based product that is NON renewable ( in our lifetime at least ) that must be transported many times....in some cases half way around the world, then refined or CRACKED into various products then transported again ( maybe several times ) then pumped and sold. LOTS of people have a hand in getting a product in your car or plane... and all for what 3 something per gallon...... hum...things to ponder dont you think..... ( not to mention the R & D and exploration costs )
and I am not sure what you mean by "cracked" all crude oil must be refined and cracked into different products .... it doesnt come out of the ground and straight into the tank.....
Heck I dont like paying 3.20 a gallon for gasoline but when you think about it..... its a petroleum based product that is NON renewable ( in our lifetime at least ) that must be transported many times....in some cases half way around the world, then refined or CRACKED into various products then transported again ( maybe several times ) then pumped and sold. LOTS of people have a hand in getting a product in your car or plane... and all for what 3 something per gallon...... hum...things to ponder dont you think..... ( not to mention the R & D and exploration costs )
04-16-2008, 12:17 PM
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This is another article discussing AMR posting a Q1 loss, due mainly to high fuel costs. When labor constituted an airline's highest cost, management cut wages and warm bodies, but it's not possible to cut the price of fuel. This whole industry is like a pressure cooker and something has to give soon, I'm afraid.
I have copied and pasted some interesting portions of this new article.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24162053/
I have copied and pasted some interesting portions of this new article.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24162053/
American is also dealing with a near-revolt among its employees, particularly its pilots, who elected a hard-liner president last year and spent part of Tuesday picketing against American outside the headquarters of the airline’s biggest customers and shareholders.
Picketing pilots said they were embarrassed over last week’s flight cancellations and are outraged about stock bonuses totaling up to $40 million going to executives this week. They said the company should spend more on maintenance and personnel, even while it’s losing money.
Cyndi Dawson, a pilot and former flight attendant at American, said the airline has canceled flights and lost the accompanying revenue for lack of a ready crew, yet won’t recall more laid-off pilots. She said the airline must spend money — on employees — to make more.
Picketing pilots said they were embarrassed over last week’s flight cancellations and are outraged about stock bonuses totaling up to $40 million going to executives this week. They said the company should spend more on maintenance and personnel, even while it’s losing money.
Cyndi Dawson, a pilot and former flight attendant at American, said the airline has canceled flights and lost the accompanying revenue for lack of a ready crew, yet won’t recall more laid-off pilots. She said the airline must spend money — on employees — to make more.
04-16-2008, 12:21 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by HercDriver130
Hum, if airlines would simply pass the cost of fuel on to the consumer like every other business in this country this wouldnt be such a big deal.
B.I.N.G.O.......Flight are for the most part FULL.....if the airlines would just quietly raise the fares 15- 20 percent I'm certain the passengers wouldn't even notice.
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