Airline Pilot Central Forums - Getting bumped back from Captain

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeNtheFstLne (Post 377187)

You certainly bring up an important topic; Q.O.L. I suppose now that so many of the pay and work rules have gone in the toilet the appeal of upgrading ASAP to buy that 'Cadillac a month' has vanished. I wonder what is more cost effective for the company? I would imagine that's the direction that will be taken...(and by that I mean rammed down your throats). People frequently mention our 3-year or 5-year CA's at CAL. It's not JUST because of all those retirements. Anyone who has ever sat reserve here will tell you that is the contributing factor for so many commuters not wanting/be able to upgrade ASAP.

Some guys like being invisible in the right seat. Low stress. Few expectations. Lower standards.

SkyHigh

Quote:

Originally Posted by saab2000 (Post 377189)

I did not get into this job to show my uniform stripes off to the passengers. Or to become visible to anyone. Yes, it can be frustrating to be 'better' than the guy in the left seat, but that can be a position that it's dangerous to have anyway. When I moved to the left seat I got a whole new appreciation for the so-called 'weak links' I used to fly with and got to see things from their perspective.

Do I want to move back to the right seat? No. But if I get a new job it's where I'll likely end up. I enjoyed my right seat time and learned a lot. But my satisfaction in the left seat has nothing to do with how the public perceives me or my position.

Yes, I agree that your self image should not be invested in public opinion however the passengers are merely stating what is obvious to them and that is that the FO is not the guy who is flying the plane.

SkyHigh

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyHigh (Post 377183)

As an FO passengers will stare at you in full uniform and three bars and ask "are you the pilot"? Meaning that the FO is not the pilot. And in reality the FO isn't. Most of the time the FO gets the same information about the flight as the passengers. The FO is one pilot to many in a job that requires a half alert person to begin with. They have superfluous and respect less job that really is "invisible". There isn't much satisfaction in the right seat.

SkyHigh

Passengers don't konw the gate their plane is leaving out of even though it's RIGHT on their boarding pass. Do YOU really think when they look at a pilot they know the difference between 3 stripes and 4?

When I based in LGA you how many times when waiting for the employee shuttle to the parking lot we would get mistaken for skycaps?

Some guido shows up, drops his luggage; "Doze bags arh goin' ta lawderdale!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7576FO (Post 377178)

On the up or out at American captain upgrade, since 2001 it can be deferred up to like 3 years now, but you must write a statement to your chief or something. I see it in the computer when looking at the bid results who has deferred.

I think our union wants it changed due to the massive amount of commuters we have. That it's a different landscape now. Since 2001, many if not all of us have decided whats more important "your family life or your seat"
This is just my guess.
But more likely it's to match the other majors that do not have a up or out policy.
Me, i'll upgrade at first chance available. But that's just me.

I like the policy and because it's fair, this way everyone gets a shot at "The On Reserve Experience" Whooppee!

Deleted post due to duplication. (i.e. Computer SUCKS).

SaltyDog,

Just curious. I am thinking that you fly for a freight company that might paint it's airplanes brown. How many years was the first upgrade? Just curious. I jumpseated PHL-MSP on a DC-8 a couple years back the trip was the first trip on OE for an upgrade candidate, though I had the impression that he could have upgraded sooner.

Anyway, just curious how long upgrades are over there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyHigh (Post 377193)

Some guys like being invisible in the right seat. Low stress. Few expectations. Lower standards.

SkyHigh

I don't know what company has 'lower' standards or fewer expectations of the folks in the right seat. The standards are different, but not lower. And the right seat is not a low stress job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyHigh (Post 377183)

I can see your friends position. As an FO you are invisible. No one cares about your opinions. Maintenance control or dispatch does not care what you think. Management does not want your input. The chief pilot does not know your name. You have no real responsibilities. The company has to dream up busy work to keep The FO awake and interested. You are merely a redundant system that is there to gain experience through observation. Even FA's and baggage handlers have more input and control over their environment.

As an FO passengers will stare at you in full uniform and three bars and ask "are you the pilot"? Meaning that the FO is not the pilot. And in reality the FO isn't. Most of the time the FO gets the same information about the flight as the passengers. The FO is one pilot to many in a job that requires a half alert person to begin with. They have superfluous and respect less job that really is "invisible". There isn't much satisfaction in the right seat.

SkyHigh

With due respect, you are wrong in everything you said in this post. The FO is a valuable and irreplaceable part of the crew. I have flown both seats and understand the responsibilities of both seats. A good FO makes the captain's life easy, less stressful, and less distracting. That enables the captain to easily spot anything abnormal or unusual and asses its threat to a safe operation. The FO at organizations I am familiar with have the authority to ensure a flight is operated safely and efficiently.

Anyone who looks down at the FO or does not appreciate their responsibilities and duties as an FO needs to be re-trained or in another industry. Anyone who believes a single pilot operation is better than a crew operation does not know the history of this industry nor are they aware of the magnitude of risk they are proposing.

Crews are only as good as their weakest link. Sometimes that is the captain, sometimes the FO. Working together, the CREW is stronger and safer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7576FO (Post 377178)

Is the up or out with regards to your overall system-wide seniority, or is it just applicable to your particular domicile? In other words, if you are an FO in DFW and can hold captain in ORD, do you have to take the upgrade in ORD and change domiciles?

Quote:

Originally Posted by saab2000 (Post 377199)

The running count was 10 years almost to the day. When our ANC domicile opened up it went to 7 years. With 65, it is probably back at 10+ because we had many 60 yr old Capts go to the S/O seat and as Capt vacancies occur, they are going back to the Capt seat.
We have the option to upgrade based on percentage. Example: I put in for first Capt seat available. [Have the option though to say I do not want Capt until I can hold top XX% in seat. Know some F/O's who stayed F/O until they could hold same line (QOL) on same plane as a Capt. <g>. Neat option for commuters.

Professional pilots are by and large Type-A personalities who want to call the shots and do things their own way.

I don't think it's egotistical or wrong for a guy to want to be (or stay) a captain...it's what he's trained for and striven for throughout his career.

I don't think he wasn't bad-mouthing FOs...just lamenting his demotion from being able to do things his way. Doesn't necessarily mean he'll be a CRM problem, etc etc.

After all, our airlines hired Captains, not FOs, right?