Awappa update.
 

For those that don't know, Awappa is the non profit protecting the america west pilots from the east scabs. Apparently the lying continues back east with the new union, they have failed to tell their membership that no further negotiations would take place (they planned on striking a deal exchanging the stapling of the west pilots for a concessionary contract) they insist that any new mergers will go doh placing their 18 year furloughed pilots on top of ual and awa senior captains. Also for those that don't know former AWA pilots are totally unprotected with no rep's or committees staffed out west, we have all lost our insurance coverage and our grievances have been dropped by the new scab union imposed on us, don't forget that when you give these guys a jumpseat ride. A AWA pilot can be identified by the PXXXX number on the back of his ID and by the red "cactus" sticker on the badge backer




"1. AAA MEC Lawsuit Dismissed
AWAPPA has been informed that the attorneys representing both the AAA and AWA MECs have filed a joint stipulation dismissing the case in DC Superior Court, as the parties (namely the AAA and AWA MECs) to the proceeding no longer exist. Thus ends one challenge to the Nicolau Award.

2. Parker Informs Labor - No Joint Negotiations Until After Any Merger
AWAPPA volunteers have learned that at last week's quarterly labor meeting with US Airways senior management, Doug Parker did NOT acknowledge any direct discussions regarding any party to a merger, but instead told the labor representatives there (including USAPA) that if a merger took place, there would be no joint labor negotiations until after a merger transaction is closed for financial purposes. This is not unexpected as this was management's stance in our AWA/AAA negotiations (with the exception of the completion of our Transition Agreement). In this case, it is even possible that no transition agreement negotiations would be completed as the UAL and LCC pilots are represented by different unions.

We continue to carefully observe both management's actions, and USAPA's actions very closely as we have informed both parties that they will be named as defendants in a law suit if they agree to modify the Nicolau Award.

3. Watch Your Back
AWAPPA has received several reports of USAPA members attempting to create a hostile work environment for former AWA pilots by engaging them in debate designed to entrap them and then filing reports against them with management. In their reports to management, the USAPA members have deliberately added "spin" to their version of the confrontation to appear that they are the victim.

Frankly, this vile act is inexcusable and the culture that has created this environment should be immediately stomped out by senior management. We hope that senior management is going to adopt a zero tolerance approach to this "baiting" activity by some USAPA members who file these frivolous reports.

AWA pilots need to be especially careful not to be entrapped by these activities and avoid any and all confrontations with East pilots. AWAPPA recommends that if you are confronted, you should immediate remove yourself from the situation and find witnesses to bear evidence to any events that may have transpired. Document everything. And please be careful out there.

4. USAPA Claims All Expenses Germane
In a recent report, USAPA has claimed that all expenses their expenses are "germane" to the representational activities. As a reminder, those who pay agency shop fees in lieu of union dues are entitled to a refund of all fees that were not used for "germane" representational expenses. We guess that this recent announcement means that USAPA plans to go ahead and collect dues from pilots even though they have not delivered any contractual products yet. Additionally, USAPA has yet to clarify whether they are charging 1.95% or 2.95% dues, even though they have worked out a non-member dues check-off arrangement.

Thanks USAPA, but on behalf of the dissenters, we will wait until you mail us the bill.

5. Follow the FOM
The new US Airways FOM is designed to be permissive in nature as a result of liability experience from US Air's six major accidents. Our former Safety Committee folks highly recommend all pilots carefully follow the rules. With a new and untested union, and now that we are outside ALPA's accident and safety umbrella, it is up to every pilot to protect themselves. Fly by the book. If in doubt, file an ASAP and NASA report immediately.

6. McCaskill or ALPA Merger Policy - You Decide.
USAPA put out a recent update that asserted that as a result of the McCaskill Bill, Allegheny-Mohawk procedures would be used if we merged with UAL. The McCaskill Bill was enacted at the end of 2007 as a stop gap to protect labor from mergers like AMR/TWA where one employee group did not get access to a "fair and equitable" standard in an arbitration to integrate seniority. Importantly, the provisions of the Bill do not apply if the employees are represented by the same labor organization. Specifically, the law says: "if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or classes at each of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent's internal policies regarding integration, if any, will not be affected by and will supersede the requirements of this section..."

Consider the following: Let's say LCC and UAL merge, the transaction closes this fall sometime, and subsequent to the closing there is an NMB single carrier determination and an election between the pilot groups. We are confident that ALPA would be reinstalled as the union for all UAL/LCC pilots after a relatively quick election (since no cards would have to be filed). Because the new law says that Allegheny/Mohawk arbitration only takes place if the employees are represented by different labor organizations, it is AWAPPA's view that ALPA's Merger Policy would be used because both LCC and UAL pilots would be in ALPA well before the merged seniority talks take place. (Remember how long it took our case to get through all the steps?) Here is the law's text for your review:

SEC. 117. LABOR INTEGRATION.

(a) LABOR INTEGRATION- With respect to any covered transaction involving two or more covered air carriers that results in the combination of crafts or classes that are subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.), sections 3 and 13 of the labor protective provisions imposed by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger (as published at 59 C.A.B. 45) shall apply to the integration of covered employees of the covered air carriers; except that-

(1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or classes at each of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent's internal policies regarding integration, if any, will not be affected by and will supersede the requirements of this section; and

(2) the requirements of any collective bargaining agreement that may be applicable to the terms of integration involving covered employees of a covered air carrier shall not be affected by the requirements of this section as to the employees covered by that agreement, so long as those provisions allow for the protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk provisions.

(b) DEFINITIONS- In this section, the following definitions apply:

(1) AIR CARRIER- The term `air carrier' means an air carrier that holds a certificate issued under chapter 411 of title 49, United States Code.
(2) COVERED AIR CARRIER- The term `covered air carrier' means an air carrier that is involved in a covered transaction.
(3) COVERED EMPLOYEE- The term `covered employee' means an employee who--
(A) is not a temporary employee; and
(B) is a member of a craft or class that is subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.).
(4) COVERED TRANSACTION- The term `covered transaction' means--
(A) a transaction for the combination of multiple air carriers into a single air carrier; and which
(B) involves the transfer of ownership or control of--
(i) 50 percent or more of the equity securities (as defined in section 101 of title 11, United States Code) of an air carrier; or
(ii) 50 percent or more (by value) of the assets of the air carrier.

(c) APPLICATION- This section shall not apply to any covered transaction involving a covered air carrier that took place before the date of enactment of this Act.

(d) EFFECTIVENESS OF PROVISION- This section shall become effective on the date of enactment of this Act and shall continue in effect in fiscal years after fiscal year 2008.

But even if we are wrong about that scenario, since ALPA Merger Policy works similarly to the way that Allegheny-Mohawk works (i.e. a fair and equitable integration resulting from binding arbitration), the same substantive standards would apply. While some continue to argue that Allegheny-Mohawk means date of hire, nothing could be further from the truth as has been previously pointed out in a letter by Jeff Freund which explained that integration under Allegheny-Mohawk has infrequently resulted in a DOH integration of pilot seniority lists [note that the letter was written prior to the existence of the McCaskill Bill]. In any event, one thing is clear - if ALPA becomes the bargaining agent for both UAL and LCC pilots, it is unlikely that any assertion from the soon-to-be-former USAPA demanding that they are a party to this integration would prevail, since they will have no statutory right to represent any pilots.

7. Insurance Solutions
For those of you who received cancellation notices from ALPA for your insurance, please note that Harvey Watt is offering insurance to all AWA pilots who are not members of USAPA on the same terms and conditions as will be offered to USAPA members. AWAPPA has no relationship with Harvey Watt or the insurance products that they are offering to AWA pilots.

The link to apply is:

http://www.harveywatt.com/awapilots

All US Airways pilots who are not USAPA members are eligible to apply under this link. Also, Harvey Watt is also offering Aeromedical Coverage to USAPA non-members for $50.00 per year.

7. UAL Merger - Conflict of Interest?
AWAPPA continues to monitor the UAL merger situation. A handful of AWA pilots have expressed some concern that our attorney, Mr. Jeff Freund, also represents the UAL Merger Committee and therefore has a "conflict of interest." We are confident that no such conflict exists. To be clear, Mr. Freund represents AWAPPA for one fundamental primary purpose - to preserve and protect the Nicolau Award, whether US Airways merges with another carrier or stands alone. He does not represent AWAPPA for the purpose of integrating a US Airways seniority list with a seniority list from any other airline. Should the AWA pilot's "legal interests" change as the result of a merger or other transaction, we review our requirements for counsel if necessary."

...what was this tread about anyway?....

First you say this:

and this:

....and then you say this:


So please "spin", for my edification, how calling someone who hasn't crossed a union picket line a "scab" is not creating a hostile work environment. Seems the pot is calling the kettle black.



Typhoonpilot

does awappa or usapa have a solution to successfully bring the east/west guys together with as little resentment as possible? most likely not. throw in UAL and this will be a wild ride in the next few years. please guys work toward a solution nothing good can come of this.

Here we go again. Does anyone moderate these threads at all?:(

AWAPPA Update - May 20, 2008



May 20, 2008









:: The USAPA Olive Branch
:: Leonidas LLC Update

"Here we go again. Does anyone moderate these threads at all?"

Yeah....

I don't see TOS violation here. As always, if you feel a post violates TOS, feel free to use the report post feature and state your case. When you do that, all the mods/admins can see the post and it will be reviewed.

What is USAPA doing regarding greivences that were ongoing and handled by ALPA? Did they have a system in place, and if so, are they effective?

Just as an opener, I wonder if this merging of seniority lists is being studied by the other legacy carriers (both management and pilot groups).

I think it is a fair statement that the two groups are divided. Some say management enjoys this kind of divide and conquer scenario. However, I would question that saying a disgruntled employee is a costly employee.

Just my two pesos,

FF

Are you talking Mexican pesos or US centavos? I think you should hold on to your Mexican pesos, soon they'll be worth mucho dollares... :eek:



Would it be possible to keep the two groups fenced in forever? (except those hired after the merger that is?)
I think this 'marriage' is beyond any repair so unless they go separate ways (is that possible?) maybe they just need to remain two 'de facto' separate airlines?

Also, I must say I have hard time understanding why some think that east USAir pilots are scabs? I dislike ALPA but had they voted for ALPA I'd have respected their vote. They voted against ALPA and are now being called scabs? Really? The key word here is 'vote' - not crossing a picket line. Can someone explain?

Let's see you merge with another bigger airline, you can't agree on a seniority list, you both volunteer to go to binding arbitration to settle the dispute, the bigger pilot group doesn't like the outcome, votes your union out and decides to impose whatever seniority the larger group thinks is fair on the smaller group, while agreeing to work for less wages than the smaller group. Do you get it now why they are scabs

I just don't get it. Every time I see a thread or a youtube video on the subject, the more I can't believe the west pilots and their actions.

The lesson to be learned from this whole ordeal is that arbitrators know how to screw things up in a big way. When an issue comes up, for crying out loud, somebody come up with a viable solution. In my opinion, it seems that the USAPA folks are the only ones trying to do that.

I also can't believe that ALPA would look favorably on the outcome of the arbitration award. The shortsighted gains that the west pilots get from the award will screw the industry as a whole. If that integration list stands, it will be the blueprint for management to cut wages for our profession for years to come.

Imagine you are the scheming CEO of a large airline with a group of pilots at the top of their payscales in terms of years of service. To lower labor costs, you could
a. try to negotiate a lower payscale (painful, and not likely to succeed, and especially volatile when you collect your multimillion dollar bonus check),
b. offer substantial buyouts to get "overpriced" pilots out of the cockpits (too costly),
c. go bankrupt and start from scratch (but then those damn restricted stock options become worthless), or
d. furlough half of the pilot group, merge with a much younger carrier, and insert a large batch of cheaper pilots into the middle of the seniority lists (lower pilot costs = profits and bonuses for management... added bonus, half the pilots are happy to help).

I can see it now... Next year, American will furlough up to 5000 pilots, meanwhile Continental expands and hires 3000 furloughed pilots from ATA and other places all at 1st year F/O pay. Then American merges with Continental, staples their own 5000 10 year+ pilots to the bottom of the list leaving them on furlough, and gets 3000 experienced pilots flying for 1st year pay to be the FOs. Who gets screwed? The bottom half of American's pilots, all the ATA pilots who had to start back at square one, and the profession as a whole.

That is how I see what happened at AWA/USAir. If I am wrong, please explain it to me.

In the mean time, please west pilots, take a deep breath, sit down at the table with USAPA, figure out what is important, find some common ground, and come up with a compromise to end this nonsense.

My two yen (a currency I'm fairly certain isn't going anywhere)

The AWA pilots came to the table willing to work on a solution before the arbitration. The East wouldn't budge from DOH, which would have tacked the aquiring airlines pilots on the bottom. What part of reality don't you understand.

You are so far off base that I won't even waist my time with your delusions, to say that usapa is the only one looking for solutions speaks volumes of just how far out of the loop you are.

I'll admit that I am out of the loop. But as an impartial bystander you aren't exactly helping me see your side of things.

As far as USAPA not willing to budge on DOH, when I hear them talk about setting up fences, that sounds like they are accomodating you on the date of hire issue. That sounds like they are negotiating, and trying to come to an agreement that works for all USAir (east and west) pilots.

Responses like the ones that you two just gave does not make it sound like you are working toward a resolution. I am just hearing, "we won Nicolau, USAPA guys are losers, now it's Miller Time".

Send some reps to USAPA... let DOH stand and build the fences necessary to give your guys an equitable QOL. Tell those guys where to put the fence posts, (but not where the sun don't shine).

If there are other issues at hand, voice them. Tell us how the USAPA guys are screwing you over. Tell us how Nicolau is good for the profession, other than just being a cautionary tale.

Fred,
Binding arbitration is just that. You can't just agree to it and have a hissy-fit when you don't like the results. If you can't see that then you are so far out of the loop that no one can bring you back!

Let DOH stand? I see where you are coming from, no need to respond to such a bone headed statement.

Spanky,

I'm not too concerned about the binding arbitration part of this matter. I understand what it means. Personally, I'd like to keep the lawyers as far out of this as possible. For every lawyer that says it is final, there's another lawyer who says it isn't (usually based on who pays the retainer).

I'm concerned about the process that got us there. If the arbitrator gave a strict DOH ruling which made every USAir guy a capt and every AWA guy and FO, I'd be just as outraged.

I feel that the arbitrator's award was unduly influenced by management, and as such, set a dangerous precedent for future mergers and will be a detrement to all of our future professional QOL.

As such, I'd like to see the west guys take an active and constructive interest in the activities of USAPA. Come up with some agreement that they can all live with, and present the terms to management as part of a unified CBA. Most importantly, stop all the nonsense that was mentioned in the opening of this thread.

When I face a merger in the future (not if), I for one will make damn sure that I am not acting like most of the west guys in those "Can't stand the heat" videos. I would like to understand how the west guys feel that what they have is a fair award. If it was truly fair, and they gave up as much as they got, then why don't we make that process the standard for how we will deal with all future mergers?

Sorry to all those people who just spilled drinks on their keyboards reading that last line.

At least take the whole quote in context. DOH plus fences. It is not an ideal system either, but it does have its merits. Explain why it is boneheaded. What are the fair and equitable alternatives?

Dang you guys are touchy.

No it has zero merits when you have such disparate work groups, Hey I have an idea let's find an independant third party to decide ;)

How can you not be concerned with 'binding arbitration'? What kind of precedent would that set in the future from credit card disputes, real estate contracts up to seniority lists?

Yes, lawyers are scum until you need one! I'll agree on that.

You can FEEL anything you want about the 'award' but if you don't have facts to back it up, it's just a feeling.

I'm with you on both sides stepping up and coming to an agreement that only makes 20% mad but voting out ALPA and starting their own 'EAST' union is very devisive.

Respectfully, SP

PS - I don't work for either. Just watching from the sidelines but think that binding is just that.

Is Awoopwoop the same guys that wanted ALPA gone from AW a few years back? me is confused...

Ok, I have to speak-up on this one. First of all, judging by your screen name, and by your number of posts, I assume you joined APC with the sole intention of using it as a tool to rally support for "West" pilots against "East" pilots. Though this apparently is not against the rules, I don't believe that this is what the creators of APC had in mind when they made this forum. Furthermore, I hope that your rallying cry is either ignored, or criticized for it's pilot-against-pilot message- even by those who may have some sympathy towards the west side.

To call USAirways pilots scabs is inaccurate and unfair. They have suffered through multiple mergers, bankruptcy, poor management and one of the most challenging route structures in the country, and through it all have tried continuously to maintain some semblance of strength as a pilot group. The move to create USAPA is a perfect example of their determination, and though it may be hasty and ultimately unsuccessful, it at least shows that they are united as a group and are taking some risks to try to secure a better future.

I have lived on the East Coast and flown on USAir my whole life. I have also worked in the USAir system for about half of my professional career. Though I haven't always agreed with everything this pilot group has done, they have at least made a respectable fight to keep themselves from being dragged to the bottom by the low-cost carriers, and outsourcing of their jobs to the regionals.

You will probably get more support and sympathy for your cause if you show a little respect.

Whose post are you replying to? Cactiboss? He/she only has 11 posts, I'm confused?

I meant that he only has a few posts, which makes me think he just recently joined-with an agenda.

Of course I have an agenda, and thast is to communicate the crap the west is suffering at the hands of this "respectable" group as you call them. Obviously you and most outside the airlines are ignorant of the facts, the usair pilots have used their larger numbers to take our union away and to impose on the west whatever they want, you call that respectable? They have structured their union so that the west can get a maximum of 5 votes and the east gets 15, you think that's fair? The west makes up 38% of the pilot group, and yet we are powerless within this new union, we simply get outvoted. I call what the east did worst than being a scab, going back on your word and subjugating a smaller pilot group is down right criminal, but hey out east that's "respectable"

Yep, welcome to woop woop.... pass the prozac

Seriously, the USAPA guys cannot expect the AWA guys to be happy that ALPA was thrown out, can you? USAPA has won the battle, but don't expect the beaten group to be happy about it. The best way that USAPA can show that they are a legitimate union and not a group simply designed to overturn a binding arbitration award and impose their will on a smaller pilot group is to actually be a good union for all. What is USAPA doing about supplemental insurance that was available through ALPA? How are they handling cases of pilots that have grievances going - particularly west pilots? Is USAPA doing anything other than trying to overturn the Nic award? If so, please detail these things. I am not challenging these issues, simply asking about them and look forward to constructive responses. Thank you.

I think you'll find the scab threads started when word got out there were 400 Captain upgrades on the East vs 40 West in 2007.

Mind you, the operations are separate still but the Western thought process is the East stealing those Captain upgrades ( in the East domiciles on the East equipment)
from the West hence the scab moniker.

Not 100% sure but the problem with DOH even with fences is that if USAir needs to furlough in the future it will all be west guys being furloughed.

That is rich. The company decides what domiciles and equipment recieve additional openings and upgrades. But AWAPAer's think that those are "their upgrades", "stolen" by the East.

And that is their basis for their use of the term "scab".

Priceless...

There is the rub, with the exception of the 190's there has been no additional anything!!! The East fleet is being continually reduced to the contract min of 202. All of these upgrades came from retirements and attrition.
The 190 exception, the West will get half (as they should) when we are integrated.
This doesn't fit to well with the (they are stealing our jobs" crowd, but that is the truth of it.

Wow. Scabs huh? Interesting how you west guys throw that term around in a situation that it does not fit. A scab is someone who crosses a picket line. Let's look up the real scab list and see how many of you are on it.

West pilots denying jumseats to East guys

A west Capt was recently fired for following an east crew through the airport calling them names in public and shoving an east guy. If I were a passenger I wouldn't want that guy flying me. Nice career move.

Several other west guys fired for similar actions

West refusing to pay dues in a closed shop and starting up an illegal union-like group.

Even before the arbitrator's decision you west guys begged Parker not to bring the east guys up to pay parity on your Airbuses and 737s. Why? You begged Parker not to give the east guys the same benefits package even after the east guys voted to give up half of their profit sharing to give west guys profit sharing; eventhough the east is the money maker. Why? You're just mean.

Wow. You west guys sure are a mature group. What's wrong with you? You have such a sense of entitlement. What really bothers me is walk in as a money losing regional airline and think you are entitled to take over a legacy carrier. Who's name is on the airplanes and who makes the money pal?

Everyone knows who you guys really are. Beause everyone is sitting here reading what you guys are doing and saying, "Man I wouldn't want to merge with those guys. All they care about is themselves. They just want to gain at the expense of others' lives and careers". Hey wait, isn't that what a "scab" does? :eek:

That was one of my main questions - Arizona is a right to work state, but I have heard before (and now this), that it is a closed shop. What is the rule about this?

It would be tough for me to pay dues willingly if I were a west guy (and see through the emotion - if situation was reversed, the east guys would feel the same way). If it is indeed a closed shop, what happens to the West guys who do not pay? Also, what is illegal about Awappa? How is this different than the East guys organizing USAPA while ALPA was on property?

Thanks for the answers guys - it is illuminating. Also, I see this as one of the most important current events in the airline business right now.

So again, would it be possible for the two sides to be permanently fenced off? (Except new hires) Because everyone knows this will never get any better.

Is it possible for the west guys/gals to vote in their own union? (AWAPA?) After all, the two sides still work separately.

What about just going separate ways? Would it be possible for the two sides to agree on forcing the management into dividing the company back into two separate entities? I mean, maybe both east and west sides should demand an ‘annulment’? - after all, the marriage was never consumed… ;)

I don’t like ALPA and never will but I feel sorry for both sides. Now with the high fuel prices this should be the last of y’alls worries but it’s not. As always, the management will take their multimillion dollar parachutes with them when they bail…

Yep. Still gotta pay. Not the entire dues, but almost (like 85%+). for contract negotiation and management. Federal laws trump state laws.

We are in a right to work state and we just got agency shop in our last contract, worst thing that could happen (imho).

We grandfathered everyone who wasn't a member and they don't have to ever become a member or pay dues.

They still have to pay the "agency" fee for negotiations and maintenance of the contract.

Doesn't "grandfathered" apply here? From past experience in RLA situations a grandfather right to your job exists unencumbered from subsequent unionization. Meaning you cannot be "annexed" by the union and taxed, you must willingly join (but once you do there is no turning back). The fee for non-members is imposed upon those that arrive at a union property and decline to join.