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Great job APA! Love the "which side are you on boys?" soundtrack.

Seems like the UAL-MEC recently had a resolution to boot management pilots, but I think it failed.

Seems like typical strong arm union tactics that never work. I don't believe this is the way to get management and the union together and solve problems but good luck with that. Also, anyone who could be in their position to make bonuses would take them in a heartbeat. If anyone says they wouldn't I would have to say they were lying.

I for one WOULD NOT !!!!! So call me a liar, liar.

Come on guys... this music video is being submitted to MTV for their amature MTV awards... right?

Just for the record, what would be your way to get this done?


Have a BBQ on a nice day so everyone can see that everyone is actually a real person?

This is AA, who has pilots listed as Cost Units on the books. There is a LONG history of treating the employees like crap, and things are BAD now with the pilot manning tight. Ask any AA guy on reserve how his life is and see how much he wants to sing kumbaya with management.

Stay strong AA guys!

(Former AA guy, now FDX - I feel your pain! Well - not really but you get the point.)

Just watched the video from the web site; what is a "Captain's Card"?

Question to all. Shouldn't they go after the board of directors instead? After all, they are the one awarding these fat bonuses. Would be nice to see their faces on some Utube vid.

--------------------------------------------------

And the APA is known for it's benevolence towards it's fellow side-by-side co-workers. Give me a break, I laughed so hard, I passed a kidney stone.

Stay strong, former TWA pilots, the APA has guaranteed you won't have any career, but instead multiple furloughes.

FF
(Former TWA pilot, now UPS)

Just a question, is a requirement that everyone get that cool picture taken in uniform so they can have Christmas cards made?:rolleyes:

Agreed. I don't give two craps about APA's problems.

AMR management must love you TWA guys. Keep the ranks divided, turn any discussion into an AA-TWA piXXing contest and expend more energy fighting each other than the guys at Centreport.

Yep, THAT will get a great new contract!

Yeah bbq's work well. How come SWA doesnt have these probs? All I'm saying is if you were offered millions in bonuses you would take them. Dont blame the pilots getting bonuses blame those making the decisions. Seems like the union is just as much a problem as the managers.

Well if Judas John and Eddie Saks Ave White hadn't treated the TWA pilots like dog mess than maybe they would have been allies.

By letting the APA deal with the TWA pilots Con-man Carty hit a major homerun. Even Jeff Brundrege called the integration a shet sandwich and he is the HR management guy.

Finally, a good contract / a bad contract doesn't affect most TWA pilots because we've been on the street for 5 years, sorry to sound selfish towards my brothers at the APA, but after what they did to us...well maybe I'm not sorry. The APA should have thought about this divide and conquer integration before they shoved it down out throats.

FF

Just curious, what is accomplished by badmouthing your own airline? Do you expect to get a raise now? The thought processes are about the same as when a two year old doesn't get the toy he wants. Good lord people you have a picture of AA management with Saddam Hussein. It amazes me that grown men can think of this stuff, and amazes me even more that somebody with authority looks at this stuff and says, "yeah thats perfect, just what we want. A picture of Arpey, Hetterman,etc. with Saddam Hussein. Brilliant."

If any of you rocket scientists look at the website, you'll see that's it's not sponsored by the APA.

I doubt AA senior managers pay any attention to such stuff. They don't care what the employees think as long as the fat bonuses keep going into the bank account.

Ok, Capt. Fury is the creative genius behind the title page and the Bring Me my Fool stuff. The other pages, along with the extremely moving song are APA. I think, after hearing that song, I am ready to start a revolution. Bring me my pitchfork.

Thats ok, the red tails at American have a picture of the APA greats with a famous dictator from the past.:cool:

I'm not bad mouthing AMR, it is the methodology that the APA used to integrate the TWA pilots onto their list which basically ensures that during every downturn - 9/11 aftermath/current fuel crisis, etc., that the bottom redtails will be the furlough fodder.

FF

You can thank APA, AA managers and ALPA under Woerth for the 'divide-and conquer'; the TWA pilots were just innocent bystanders caught up in the middle.

I know AA is big, but damn that is a lot of Flight ops directors and CPs

I agree that it was an act of stupidity for Carty to buy the TWA assets, when the usual modus operandi of AA to buy an airline/assets, then get rid of the aquired capacity was followed yet again. This was a stupendous waste of money for AA, created turmoil in the AA workforce, and was obviously bad in the extreme for TWA and it's employees.

It seems to be the opinion of the employees that TWA could have survived on its own. They should have been given that chance, but, as usual, the big guys made their bundle, then jetted off into the sunset very rich.

Anyone (mostly TWAers) at the bottom of the seniority lists at AA should consider AA a dead-duck for recall. I think there's going to be another huge blood-letting re-furlough for the recent recallees. I don't see any way that AA can avoid a BK next winter even with the drop dead failure of UAL. Of course, any serious belief that AA will declare BK will likely trigger mass retirements, but even then, it's questionable that a post BK, sub-UAL court-imposed contract will be worth coming back to.

With there were a glimmer of hope, but this entire country is headed to hell in a handbasket and I just don't see any genuine political will to change that.

*

Agree 100%. But since 9-11, 80% of TWA's employees have suffered the brunt of furloughs at AA, while less than 16% of AA's have lost their jobs. Not fair, equitable or the AAmerican way.

Just curious, what furlough numbers would have made it "fair and equitable?" The other way around... 80% AA furloughed and 16% TWA? 50-50? Me, I don't know. But what I do know is that, when a large profitable (at the time) airline buys the assets of a much smaller airline close to the brink, it goes without saying that the employees of the larger, acquiring airline that were already on the property will enjoy much better job stability than those from the other smaller airline that is being acquired. Unfair to the smaller airline, definitely. But you can rest assured it will happen again.... even with the new mandate of "neutral arbitration." We've already seen it with AWA/US. It's just the old axiom, "He who has the most gold makes the rules."

I suspect the thing that ticks most of you TWA folks off is the fact that the acquisition came with that golden promise from Don Carty and AMR - NOT APA - about "fair and equitable." To that extent, I completely understand your frustration and agree 100% that it led you folks down the wrong path.

73

I have no sympathy for anything bad that happens to the pilots defending the profession/APA/operation lock and load/2 minute striker @ssclowns.

Do feel sorry for the TWA guys tho.

No worries, my leetle friend....sympathy is the last thing we need right now. We want everyone ****ed off at us, that's what riles us up and makes us fight even harder for the best contract ever. Bring it on! :cool:

73

Not sure what it is about AA pilots. They always have been[IMO] a little different. Seems like APA and management are always in some kind of confrontation. Yet they continue to function. Go figure !! When I started, back in the 70's, AA pilots were known by pilots from other airlines as "Sky Nazis". Almost like there were AA pilots and everybody else. Even know a retired AA pilot who is a nice guy, but can't start a sentence without "Back when I was a Chief Pilot at American---". Gets old after a while. Used to subscribe to the APA newsletter, but dropped it when all I read was negativity. Just my $.02.

Here were the furlough numbers, YOU decide:

AA Seniority List: 11,600 Pilots; 1100 furloughed (11%, most senior furloughee July '99 hire, FO)

TWA Seniority List: 2400 Pilots; 1900 furloughed (78% of list, most senior furloughee a June '88 CA)

Well? Still think it was shared equally and sacrificed fairly after 9-11?

Your second point about it happening again is false. The Bond-McCaskill bill was created, signed and passed into law because of AA/APA's greed and arrogance. It will NOT happen again.

The thing that 'ticks us off' most is APA, ALPA and AA entered into a secret agreement to subvert the integration process for their own ends. That is what ticks us off.

I understand what ticks you guys off, as I've already pointed out.

You still didn't answer my question regarding "fair" furlough numbers. You just listed a bunch of statistics.

Do you honestly think that AA pilots should have taken the brunt of the furloughs - when it was THEIR OWN AIRLINE that purchased TWA? Does that seem fair?

All I'm trying to say is this - once again - if a large profitable airline purchases a much smaller airline's assets that is close to the financial brink, it is most probable that the larger airline's employees will have more job stability/seniority than the smaller airline being purchased. Along those lines, therefore, it is not surprising that TWA employees suffered most of the furloughs - because they were bought out close to the financial brink by a much larger, more stable airline. You and your pilot group will forever deny that fact, but it will always hold true. This is the corporate world and how it works.

Regarding the Bond-McCaskill bill - all it does is prevents one union from calling all the shots, and submits the whole process to binding arbitration. But, as we've seen in the AWA/US deal, even binding arbitration leads to judgments mostly in favor of the most financially healthy airline. That is what I mean when I say it will probably happen again, even through binding arbitration - because an arbitrator will always take a "snapshot" of both airlines' financial health on the day of the merger/acquisition, and this must be taken into account when figuring job stability/seniority.

73

aa73, financial health/stability has NEVER been used as a resource for deciding integrations, nor should it ever be. To say that the acquired airline should bear the brunt of the furloughs is reinforcing the title of this thread----AArogance. You deserve YOUR job, but I don't deserve mine. Your airline bought mine, but I'm an inferior pilot and should be laid-off instead of you, even though I was probably flying jets at a major before you had your private. You're merely displaying your sense of entitlement the more you try and make your point.

Bond/McCaskill was created because of AA/APA/ALPA and their subversive behavior and seperate agenda during the AA/TWA 'un'integration, simply put.

What is ironic in all this, especially in your description above, is that APA fought VEHEMENENTLY to deny TWA pilots arbitration of ANY kind, binding especially.

To answer your question: Furloughs should have been FAIRLY distributed, if 2890 were furloughed, half from AA, half from TWA. The percentages would STILL disadvantage the TWA pilots and give a windfall to AA's!

Started out with a long reply but I realized I was repeating myself for the umpteenth time and I'm not gonna change anyone's mind.

Let's just leave it at, "agree to disagree".

73

Yea, dont waste you're breath with these @holes, their really not worth it-any way, they'll soon be getting a dose of reality.

aa73, looks like you got your wish, saw on the news aa's performance numbers-DEAD LAST-keep up the good work.

TonyM,
where were you in the industry when this occurred?

What are your thoughts on the current US/AWA pilot situation? (directed to all thread participants)

spankin' it to Scarface and his boyhood crush.... :D

:D
LOL
:D

I don't disagree with the 50-50 idea. However, interesting that you would think that with 50-50 furloughs, AA pilots would still get a windfall? Please elaborate...


73

Okay: Here is 50/50, simply put. There were 2,890 pilot furloughs at AA after 9-11, which started on October 1st,2001 and ended on June 1st,2004. If half of the 2,890, which would be 1445 pilots, were furloughed from both the TWA list and the AA list, TWA would still have lost 60% of their pilots, while AA would have only lost 13% of their pilots. The most senior TWA furloughee would be a '96 hire F/O, the most senior AA furloughee a spring '99 hire F/O.

For what really happened, see my post above. Not equitable, not fair, not reasonable at all, buyout or not.

Also, consider this: Every legacy airline downsized 20% after 9-11, and subsequently furloughed massive amounts of pilots. If AA had not bought TWA, instead of using TWA pilots as a doormat-buffer to insulate new-hires like you from furlough, 2,000+ pilots from AA only would have been furloughed instead. Many of your APA brethren live in a fantasy all-about-me world and don't believe that; it WOULD have happened, trust me. The buyout of TWA saved you and others from a long furlough.

And now, with oil prices shooting off the scale, if furloughs occur at AA again, WHO will be furloughed? recently-recalled former TWA pilots, not you.

And if AA didn't buy the TWA assets, 100% of the TWA pilots would have been on the street post 9-11.

next?

What are you thoughts on the USAPA's adgenda?

I have to agree that TWA pilots have been treated poorly by AA. How AA can get away with this is beyond me. They all wear the AA uniform now but its like they don't. Hopefully AA will start treating their people better.

AA set the stage. There's no doubt about that. It was TWA's decision to head down that road.

They did.