Delta Strike
 

Does anyone really think they will really strike? I saw in the paper the practice strike with some 275 pilots walking around ATL terminal. When would it happen?

Trying to get the management nervous?

No. I dont think they will strike. Too much to lose despite what they say.

Not a prayer... too much as stake.

Prediction
 

If the contract is rejected, Yes. In that case, DALPA says the strike would occur "at a time of our choosing". Labor experts are split on the legality of such a strike--this scenario has not been tested before. The panel's decision is due on April 15, but extensions of that deadline to allow more negotiations could well occur.

I don't think we'll ever see a panel decision, because some kind of deal will be reached first. Management is beginning to smell a "no-win" situation. If the panel rules against them, they get no additional pilot concessions. If it rules for them and the contract is rejected, they may have no pilots. Better to "split the difference" and get half a loaf now. They know that they can always file another 1113 later in front of a friendly judge. As long as Delta is in bankruptcy, all "deals" are only temporary. :mad:

whats a practice strike?

I don't know thats what the newspaper said. You know how accurate the papers are;) I think it was just a show of force to intimidate the arbitration panel.

I suppose that if there is a stike at Delta soon, the company will tank. Then everyone, including the pilots, will end up screwing themselves while the executives will land softly elsewhere on golden parachutes.

It makes no sense to strike when a company is on the verge of collapse... I say weather the storm and when things get better, demand for pay raises. If that doesn't work, at least then a stike would not destroy the company, but make it lose enough money to get investors to pressure management to talk to the unions.

I've been reading quite a few threads here and it seems that there is a high level of pride on the employee side of the airlines... so much so that they are willing to destroy a company and put themselves out of work rather than work for less. It must be understood that the airline industry is a high cost, low margin industry with little competative advantages between companies (especially when everything that an airline does in terms of strategy is a matter of public record).

As long as there are more pilots than there are airline jobs, airlines will push for lower wages... and as long as people are willing to pay no more than $79 each way to Fort Myers, airlines are not going to raise salaries either.

Good post...but I find it odd that many people are saying here, and on another Posting Board, the NWA guys should reject the T/A and take a stand...and NOT "weather the storm" I guess it depends who you are working for now...it all sucks....

A "practice strike" means walking through an airport convincing travellers that they should really be booking on Delta's competitors instead of risking a purchase on an airline that the pilots are threatening to kill. It's this sort of keen business sense that gives ALPA the insight into what a company should or should not pay its employees.

Do any of you 500 hour wonders GET THE CLUE??? The guys at Delta are standing up to management so that YOU have a chance at career where you can do more than live 20 guys in a two bedroom apartment surviving on beenie weenies and making more than the 25000 a year that you are currently doing.

If you want some real perspective, the call up some of your college buddies who went to law school or engineering school and ask them what they they started at.

Oh ok....Doesnt sound fun tho.

Ironwalt
 

Do you really believe that the pilots at Delta care about what happens to pilots not employed by Delta? To think that Delta pilots are making a stand for those pilots that are about to take a private pilot exam, wow what gentlemen. If pilots cared about pilots at another place of employement or the "new guy" why would the Eastern, Pan AM, TWA, and Braniff, pilots not have been imediately hired by the ones left standing, with full senority?????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? It doesn't work the way you are trying to say it does. Pilots are like all humans greedy. This means that whatever is best for them, at the time, they will do. Human nature doesn't stop when you enter a cockpit, CRM? The Delta pilots are looking at a simple equation, am I willing to work for DAL for what they are willing to pay me? If the answer is no they will quit, or strike and vote those that are out of a job. A prime example of this is Eastern Airlines. They struck in order to honor a striking union on property, strength in numbers. Bye Bye Eastern Airlines. This industry is in a shables right now and all of us are to blame. Pointing fingers at people does no good. Trying to figure out what to do does some good. The biggest thing to overcome is human nature and the jet airplane. :)

No they don't give a hoot about the youngsters taking their PPL exams now. What they care about is THEIR CAREERS. And they have watched all the rest of us get sold down the river by ALPA and various sundry MEC groups who give away the store in hopes that they can fly one more trip at substandard wages.

Delta pilots have taken notice that everyone else has given in and it has gotten the shaft in the end. I am so absolutely happy that a group of pilots is ****ed off enough to wake up and smell the horse **** that managements are shoveling to them.

I have never been a big fan of Delta Pilots, but this has really earned my respect in a big big way. The whole industry is watching and I am praying that they turn the tide back to a career that earns respect.

Those of you out there who think that your little 60 or 70 dollar an hour RJ pay is what you are worth should take another serious look at your responsibility levels and how much is placed on your shoulders every day.

It is NOT worth what they are paying you. And you know it.

I am a young wonder- or CFII/MEI - or whatever you want to call me, and I do appreciate the stance that the DAL and NWA pilots are taking. I believe that labor costs are not the problem. Look at Southwest. Senior 737 Captains currently make more than Senior 777 Captains at Delta. Management should focus on reducing costs elsewhere- not on the hard working pilots that make the airline work everyday.

I am also sick of the arrogant public perception of 'the autopilot flies the plane'. There needs to be more education out there regarding the hard work required and dues paid to get to a major airline. IMO, anyone who has not had the privledge of riding in the jumpseat (as I have) does not have the right to judge how hard pilots work and how much they should earn. It is ironic how everyone wants to pay $89 to get from New York to Orlando, but in the event of emergency, I am sure that 100% of the passengers on board would be glad to pull out their MasterCard and swipe it in the airfone in order to pay the deserving folks up front who are responsible for getting them safely on the ground.

Years ago, in the 1980's when Hank Duffy was it's President, ALPA had a public educational program similar to what you're suggesting.

It was funded by volunteer donations from ALPA pilots, not regular union dues. Unfortunately the program lasted a very short time because not enough members contributed to it. :(

And of course, Delta management is completely above board and without fault, right?

I'm certain they are the type of management who tells their pilots to "just fly your airplanes, we'll manage the airline". :eek:

You have all the makings of a fine CoolAid Drinker!!!!!!

Thats because pilots as a group are a very short sighted group. The nature of the career and the training does not make for a well rounded business mindset. This is why they didnt want to fund it.

The same kind of mentality is why:

- We have rank and file pilots instead of negotiators going head to head with trained professional negotiators on contracts.

- We have no national seniority list.

Christ, another Lorenzo Junior out there. OK, its fine to slash and slash until your employees are paying you to show-up for work. Its also A-OK to pay the management BONUSES while you are slashing and keep paying those bonuses while your company continues to lose millions of dollars. It is also fine to charge artificially low fares just to justify your announced cuts even though you can't possibly make money with said fares.

Why is it every single so-called arm-chair expert cries foul at our supposedly overpaid employees yet sits absolutely silent while managers keep stuffing their pockets with cash.

It's very easy to make those kind of calls when your sitting in the cheap seats looking in from the outside.

I'll make you a deal, I won't tell you what temperature to cook the french fries at if you don't tell me how much I should or shouldn't be paid.

Thanks for your input. Please put on your hat and get back to work, the fryer is beeping and needs your attention.

The moment someone questions union judgement then they just don't know what they are talking about. Thanks for the wonderful welcome... pilots so bitter about the way managment treats them they start treating the new guys like sh*t. I'm trying to get in the pool of airline pilots too you know... and much of what I say is from the outside looking in (un-biased in many respects). It's no wonder why so many people avoid this field of work... marred by bitterness and vengence tactics.

From the outside looking in, it does not make sense to strike when an airline is already in financial trouble (so much so that it could lead to chaper 7 if it loses too much money in an instance). As far as unions protecting pay scales... why is it that regional pilots make below poverty if striking helps the situation? I don't see how destroying the company when times are bad is going to put money in your pocket when times are good. All I'm saying is that if employees hung on until the airline was making money, then they would be in a better position to petition for pay raises without bankrupting the company. I think the airline industry is the only industry in America that has this sort of mentality.

Perhaps if someone questions the union's judgement in this industry then he must be a slave to management? I never gave any praise to management in any of my comments... but I do alude to the fact that they are the ones that ALWAYS end up smelling like roses after an airline goes under. A vast majority of the airlines are run by greedy bastards who float along on hypocracy (as you note, with the management taking bonuses as front line people take pay cuts).

The whole damn system is fu*ked up... the unions have too much power and pride (and create higher costs and inefficencies for the airlines)... and management tends to give the employees the shaft every chance they get.

Son, you are obviously new naiveand and don't yet work in the industry.

If it weren't for Unions you probably wouldn't want to become a Professional pilot because a UNION (i.e. ALPA) is what made the industry a career.

Just take some advice from an older fart who has been around the block more than a few times.

SIT back and watch and hopefully learn.

Good luck on your "Future Career"

No argument from me about this statement. :)

A couple of phrases come to mind- "You aren't paid what you deserve, you're paid what you negotiate". "When times are good, management can do NO wrong. When times are bad, the employees AREN'T doing enough". I seem to recall Mr. Grinsteins statement on pilot pay cuts before bankruptcy- "Do it once and do it right!!".

Imeneo, I originally responded by quoting you, and responding. That got a little long. So just in case I lose your attention .Let me start with this.

I realize that you are lacking this one bit of understanding about pilots, especially the pilots of Delta Airlines. Here it is: pilots only strike as a last resort, they strike when they would rather have no job than have the job under it's current conditions. Aspiring pilots like yourselves should step back and think about this, the professional pilots of Delta Airlines are rapidly approaching a point to where they would just as soon return to being ground bound as they would accept working in the job as it exists today. Does that tell you anything?

Imeno, I'm not trying to "get in the pool of airline pilots". I am "in the pool of airline pilots", and I can tell you that you should spend more time learning about the history of the profession. You wrote this:

How can you say that the pilots would rather "destroy a company and put themselves our of work rather than work for less"? The pilots at Delta are currently working for somewhere around one HALF of the wages they received six years ago. It is management demanding that they their compensation packages remain intact while stealing the pensions from the workers. It is management who is attempting to throw out the association contracts.


Regional pilots make below poverty because they accept poverty wages. That's pretty darn simple. It it my OPINION that they accept those wages because said wages are entry level wages. Entry level. Entry level, that phrase implies that there is somewhere higher to go. Pilots take regional jobs because they are trying to gain the credentials necessary for advancement. Those pilots don't strike, because they they still think that the potential for advancement exists, and they don't want to take a chance on screwing that up.

If unions have too much power, then why did Delta pilots take a big pay cut last year? Why did AA pilots take big cuts in 03 (IIRC)? Why do UAL pilots not make the same that they did in 2000? If unions have the power that you would seem to believe, then they could have prevented these wage cuts. Don't ya think?

BTW, you assert that unions create inefficiencies for airlines. Could you please provide details? Before you do so, maybe you could tell us all just exactly how you think a professional pilot should expect to be treated in these areas: duty time, rest time, days off, wages.

skybolt

Excellent Post SB

This has nothing to do with the current discussion, I have a four year degree and i am a CFI, My dream is to fly with the airlines someday. I have an incident on my record for admistering a forced landing, which the plane's landing gear and wing were damaged. My question is, is it worth spending more money and time on flight training to recieve my CFII. Because i have an incident on my record. Or will the airlines over look this?

Since you want it straight I'd reccommend pursuing another career. No way any carrier will even consider you with that on your record. Sorry.

Of course if you didn't receive a suspension for it will clear itself after 7 or so years I think.

You might want to start another thread though as you're right this has nothing to do with the current topic.

This doesn't apply directly to the DAL situation (It's regarding NWA instead), but it might help some of these younger folks understand the situation the industry faces right now.

Best of luck to all at DAL, NWA, Mesaba!

http://www.redtailmovie.com

Looking down from on high
 

I agree with just about everything you say............but,.... that legacy Delta arrogance shows through in your comments about regional pilots. Thinking that "feeder pilots" are second class (airmen) citizen's is a big part of how we, as a profession, got into the predicament were in today. Had DAL, CAL , UAL, AA and others integrated their regional pilots into their ranks, you wouldn't be looking at lower end flying leaving your seniority list, being bid out, whipsawing pilots to fly under your companies colors at ever decreasing pay and benefits (for there respective employees). While you guy's are in a though bind, and we all wish you best, your apparent apathy towards your regional brethren is short sighted and misguided. It will come to haunt you and possiblely all of us as welll. :(

Yeah, I have seen that. Hope they can raise enough money.

A couple of points if you please. I'm not Delta, and I don't think feeder pilots are second class. Apparently feeder pilots think that feeder pilots are second class. If you go back and re read my post, you'll find that I was giving my explanation for why regional pilots don't strike.
I agree that DALPA should have integrated it's lists when DAL acquired Comair and ASA.

As an aside, I'm a narrowbody Captain for a national carrier who was once a feeder pilot. The difference between a feeder pilot and myself is that I WILL leave the profession before I accept the wages/work rules being offered by feeder airlines. You see, I've been there, done that, got the company logo shirts, and I just don't need to fly for a living just to prove to someone/anyone that I'm something special. I can make enought money in other ventures to afford my own airplane, something that I can't do at feeder salaries. I.E. I could work outside of aviation & still enjoy aviation more than alot of starving, can't afford to have a family, driving a beater, living with their mother-in-law, feeder pilots.

That's not to say that they aren't as good of people as myself, it is only to say that they accept their wages. I wouldn't.

skybolt

Correct made
 

Ok Skybolt made the appropriate adjustment. :D :p

I understand the last resort part... but what I don't understand is the strike-to-destroy mentality... it does not protect payscales in the long-run, it only dimishes them. If more airlines go under there will be more highly experienced pilots in the job hunting pool that will be competing fiercely for a few open positions. Common sense and economies of scale dictate that pilots in general are not going to be highly paid as a result.


I know many things about the history of the profession. And I know enough that airlines are not exempt from the rules of economics.

As I've said before when the airline proposes to tighten the proverbial belt... everyone top to bottom must feel the pinch.


agreed.

I stand corrected on the union power issue. As far as duty time goes... pilots should never be worked to the brink of fatigue.

Wages are always negotiable and should be adjusted in compliment with the financial health of the company, just like any other industry.

Vote to strike
 

Strike vote authorized
 

Apr 4, 12:24 PM EDT

Delta Pilots Vote to Authorize Strike

By HARRY R. WEBER
AP Business Writer

April 4, 12:24pm

Well, that link I posted above didn't work so here is the article from e-mail alert I got.
Best of luck to DAL Guys and Gals


ATLANTA (AP) -- Delta Air Lines Inc. pilots, angered by management's effort to throw out their contract and impose deep pay cuts, voted by a wide margin to authorize a strike, union leaders said Tuesday.

The 94.7 percent vote in favor of authorizing a strike gives union leaders the authority to set a strike date. They didn't set a date immediately and gave no indication when they might act.

The results were announced in a memo to pilots from the chairman of the union's executive committee, Lee Moak.

An arbitration panel must decide by April 15 whether to void the pilots contract. The union has said it will strike if its contract is rejected.

The nation's third largest carrier, which is operating under bankruptcy protection, has said a strike would put it out of business.

"The results of this ballot will send the strongest message yet that if Delta's senior executives are successful in their misguided attempt to reject our contract, we will strike," Moak wrote in his memo to pilots.

He added, "All too often over the past months, management has attempted to mischaracterize the defense of our contract as posturing, gamesmanship and, most recently, saber-rattling. They are wrong."

Company spokesman Bruce Hicks said the vote will not affect Delta service.

"Together with our pilots and all of our employees we remain focused on our No. 1 priority, which is taking good care of our customers," Hicks said.

He added that the company is committed to seeking a consensual deal with its pilots.

Atlanta-based Delta sought approval to reject its contract with its 5,930 pilots so it can impose up to $325 million in long-term pay and benefit cuts, which would include a wage reduction of at least 18 percent.

Delta's pilots previously agreed to $1 billion in annual concessions, including a 32.5 percent wage cut, in a five-year deal in 2004. But Delta, which has imposed pay cuts on other employees, said it needs more from its pilots after filing for bankruptcy protection in September.

So far, there has been little movement toward a long-term deal to replace an interim deal reached in December, though both sides have met at least twice since arbitration hearings in Washington ended March 23.

Of the 5,590 pilots who voted on the strike authorization ballot, 5,295 voted in favor, according to the union.

The moment someone questions union judgement then they just don't know what they are talking about. Thanks for the wonderful welcome... pilots so bitter about the way managment treats them they start treating the new guys like sh*t. I'm trying to get in the pool of airline pilots too you know... and much of what I say is from the outside looking in (un-biased in many respects). It's no wonder why so many people avoid this field of work... marred by bitterness and vengence tactics.

From the outside looking in, it does not make sense to strike when an airline is already in financial trouble (so much so that it could lead to chaper 7 if it loses too much money in an instance). As far as unions protecting pay scales... why is it that regional pilots make below poverty if striking helps the situation? I don't see how destroying the company when times are bad is going to put money in your pocket when times are good. All I'm saying is that if employees hung on until the airline was making money, then they would be in a better position to petition for pay raises without bankrupting the company. I think the airline industry is the only industry in America that has this sort of mentality.

Perhaps if someone questions the union's judgement in this industry then he must be a slave to management? I never gave any praise to management in any of my comments... but I do alude to the fact that they are the ones that ALWAYS end up smelling like roses after an airline goes under. A vast majority of the airlines are run by greedy bastards who float along on hypocracy (as you note, with the management taking bonuses as front line people take pay cuts).

The whole damn system is fu*ked up... the unions have too much power and pride (and create higher costs and inefficencies for the airlines)... and management tends to give the employees the shaft every chance they get.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Imeneo : Yesterday at 10:05 AM.


When you make it to the big show there will be a spot for you in the very front of the line for your glass of CoolAid. As stated in a earlier post you will make a great CoolAid Drinker.

That's what a know-nothing nugget calls 'informational picketing' :D

To Skywriting

Point 1: I don't work for Delta but these guys/gals have already given in most cases in excess of a 50% cut in Pay & Benefits last year. What did their MGT do with the billions in concessions?

Point 2. If you were currently working in the industry and had experience with collective bargining your opinions would carry some weight, however, You do not and they don't.

Point 3. The whole point of collective bargining to have a
Legal right to ask for Quid pro Quo when in discussions (negotiations) with MGT, both in Good times and the Bad. The Delta Pilots have a contract. All they are asking is for MGT to bargin...........not dictate.

Point 4 is probably the most important. If it wasn't for collective bargining in the first place (Meaning Unions) you probably would not want this Job anyway. The Delta Pilots are a professional bunch and they know what they are facing...................Why do you think 95% of them voted to strike? Do you really think 5400 hundred pilots would just arbitrarily vote to strike?..................That is their last legal method to attempt to get their MGT tp bargain in good faith..............Just like the NW Pilots were faced with a month ago.

Point 5. Unions having too much power?....Pleeeaasssse. Can unions stop Corp Exces from getting Multi Million in bonuses afer they squander Billions and running Airlines into bankruptcy? Can Unions get MGT to price their product where they can make a profit? Can unions save the corporate pension fiasco?All the Unions can say is enough is enough and that is what you are seeing presently.

Point 6. If you do get into the industry, I would love to hear your opinions after a year or so on the line. Until then, I suggest that you Sit back, watch, learn and keep your uniformed "outside looking in" opinions to a minimum................

Just one pilot's opinion who has been in the industry for 20+ years and just like many of my bretheren who post here, I've been thru negotiations x 6, paycuts after paycuts, furloughs. mergers, strikes, staring over 3 times. I am fortunate enough to currently be employed by a very profitable company. I have seen it all except for the Divorce and that is one I hope to avoid.

I for one understand what the Delta (and other Pilot groups are facing) I know they face a very tough choice. But I for one admire them and support them 100%. Who knows I may be faced with the same choice in the coming year.

HEAR! . . HEAR!!

WELL SAID . . . but you were W-A-A-A-Y too polite <G> . . shoulda told him ‘FO’ . . and that isn’t a ‘seat position’ :p