"Glass Ceiling" for Age??
 

Hello Everyone,

I just started pursuing my pilots license. I am 32 now. I plan to get this done and be ready to apply within 5 years (for at least the regionals). I have been told that airlines are hesitant to hire anyone past the age of 32. Does anyone know if there is any thruth to this? I appreciate all your feedback.

Especially at the regional level, age isn't a player. It's about quals and that's about it. I don't see being 37 being a factor at all.

I know a guy who was hired at UPS at 48 and another at Delta at 50. That was even before the age 65 ruling was adopted.

Get on with it!

AL

Thanks! This makes me feel so much better. It has been my life long dream. I didn't keep up with it when I was younger and was afraid I had lost more than time. Thanks again!

Good luck,and Godspeed !

N2flying,

I tried to send you a PM, but you don't accept those. So, here's what I had intended to send to you:

--------------------

Hi,

I saw your post regarding taking flight lessons and pursuing a flying career. Make sure you do your research and be sure this is what you want to do.

I cannot, in good conscience, recommend this career. It has become just a job and it's not the career it once was. When kids ask me about becoming a pilot, I cannot bring myself to give this "career" a glowing recommendation.

Frankly, I'm skeptical that things will get better for airline pilots.

If you enjoy flying, then great. You don't have to fly jets or turboprops in order to have fun with flying.

I can honestly say that you'll probably have more fun flying a Piper Cub than a CRJ or a 737.

Just be sure you are pursuing this thing for the right reasons. There is no big money or any kind of good quality of life to speak of.

I wish you good luck with your endeavors.

Sincerely,

"Homa"

Thanks and I appreciate your objectivity. Yes, I have considered how much different it is today than it used to be. I worked for US Airways for 8 years, inflight. I began in 1999 when the front end had excellent work rules and great pay. I did not leave until 2007 at which point the contracts had been gutted through 2 bankruptcies and their lives had changed dramatically. This has been a very bad time for the industry, but it is cyclical and it will get better. While I don't think it will be as good as it was, at least in my life time, it will get better.

Thanks again.

Okay, you've been the "industry", so I guess I was preaching to the choir.

Wishing you the best of luck.

Age isn't a player anymore like it used to be. I got hired at a major at 32, and that was 22 years ago. Your resume isn't as important as it used to be, either. It's all about being who, as a person, that the interviewers want. Supply and demand is a big player.

That said, I just recently got my rejection letter from SWA. 54 yrs old, and 20,000 hours TT with 737 Check Airman time. A couple guys in my interview group got hired, though, with much less time than me, and one of them was in his mid 40's. I asked one of the interviewers if they cared about age, and she told me that as long as I wasn't 65, they didn't care.

Good luck to you, but make sure you know what you're getting into. It ain't what it was.

TW

I had the same concerns myself when I was in Sep of '06 where you are now. I was 42 then, and am now working for a 50 to 86 seat regional carrier that I am glad to say am enjoying very much! I am just getting back from a short 2 and a half month furlough but I came into this knowing it was a possibility and was prepared financially. Things are looking on the positive side but it can in change in a matter of weeks..., that fact will never cease to amaze me.., but I recognize this industry for what it is. The payoff for me is the challenge, the company, and the view. The pay doesn't come close to justifying doing this job for several years, but I'm ok with that.

Best of luck to you!

I had a friend that was 53 when he got his first regional FO job.

Been at it now for 10 years and still tell people its the best job around. Not many jobs out there that will give you half the month off and pay around 100K. I realize you still have to suffer through the regional life for a few years, but I still think in the long run it's worth it. Sure it isn't what it used to be, but its still better than almost anything else out there that pays 100K per year. Most of my neighbors make about what I make, but they work twice as much as I do.

My sentiments exactly. I understand that major paycuts cut the pay 30-45% and that sucks. But $100K is still more than most people make and provides for a pretty good life.

N2,
some one once told me "A job ain't nothing but work, what do you want a job for? A career, now that's something you love!"...
My advice to you is, if you love it, go for it. It's worth it. Also, if you keep your living costs low, than $100K is tons of money;-)
good luck with your decision.
Z

I was a career changer myself. Started at Mesa at almost 38 & hired by Southwest when I was 41. Now in my 5'th year at LUV. Age doesn't matter a bit!

Rocky and N2, while I equally appreciate the comfort and retirement security that a six figure income delivers, I would like to set one minor fact straight. It takes the average pilot 10 years from starting to get hired at a Major airline, yes there are exceptions. It personally took me ten years and I was the third youngest (in my 30's) in my newhire class at NWA . After hiring on, I was surprised to realize that it would take nearly 10 years as a NWA 757 FO to break $90 an hour (~90K a year). Even after the new contract with Delta, it will still take about 5 years to break six figures in a likely airframe, A320, B737 or a year less in the 757. Unfortunately, it seems as if these pay rates come for a few years and then go away for longer. They start large, get pulled down in a bankruptcy, and never remotely catch up to the original amount, especially when taking into account inflation.

Finally, the fast upgrades at regionals are long gone. The regional markets are shrinking due to capacity draw downs and scope changes. However, there are endless thousands already employed at regionals with thousands of hours of PIC turbine making close to six figures (guys with around ten years seniority). With any movement in legacies these candidates will likely be the first to draw from. In my newhire class, all the applicants were regional Captains. The only airline with any kind of retirements coming up would be American and they still have 1,600 furloughed from 9-11. This all equates to many years of stagnation, low pay and likely a stagnated retirement portfolio.

I admit that the former NWA would have been my dream job and maybe the new Delta will be. I am one of the very luck dudes, 180 something of 5,000 that applied. But now I face a new challenge called seniority integration and the worst economy second to the Great D (i won't even say it). When it comes to finances and retirement, one cannot get emotional. Yes, flying is my passion, but when I see people in their mid-twenties making six figures just five years out of college (about one third the time), I have to ask myself if this career makes much sense any longer.

I knew all these things when I said yes to NWA, so you are probably like me in that you'll throw the dice too and hope for the best. After all isn't it the American thing to do?

Best Wishes.

Goals
 

100K in ten years is a totally doable goal in aviation. By then once inflation takes hold even the guy who delivers the mail will make six figures so it can be done.

SkyHigh

Pay no attention to Skyhigh
 

N2, the oldest guy in my newhire class at FedEx was 54. You can do it,... pay no attention to anyone who questions your sanity.
fbh

I was 39 when I got hired by a major. Do what you love. Do what you want.

From everything I've heard and personally observed, the age concerns are a thing of the past. I thought I would be the old guy in my new hire class at 37 years old, however, I was 10 out of 20, with the oldest guy being 54 or 55 (don't remember). I would say that being under 30 is now the exception rather than the rule and I've seen new FOs at SWA who are in their fifties quite often. You only live once, do what is going to make you happy and leave you with no regrets....just my .02

And the mail carrier will have a much mcuh better retirement too... :(

I still love the job when the cockpit door closes. It's all the ancillary crap that gets to ya.

There is no glass ceiling in the US that will effect you. You have time to become a mainline captain.

But it is less likely that you will ever be a senior widebody captain. Anyone who starts aviation later than age 25 is probably never going to beat the demographics to reach the pinnacle of the industry.

Heyas N2,

I would have to echo what my bro Rotor said. While there is no glass ceiling, as we get older, it gets progressively harder to recoup the financial expense of a career change.

With the current airline demographics and economic outlook, older guys and gals are on the wrong end of the curve to see what little "real" money is left in the airline business. But there is opportunity outside the airlines, such as the fractionals, but, unfortunately, lots of guys have "fled" to those jobs as well. Corporate is a good alternative, but it is "networked", and almost impossible to break into unless you know someone unless you get really lucky.

Beyond that, there are the dollars...always the dollars. First you have the outlay for flight training. Even done on the cheap, FBO style, you're looking at 30k, at the minimum, to take you to CFI/II.

The days of hiring 300 hour wonders is winding down as well, so figure on at least a year grinding out the time CFIing at minimum wage. With the CFI shortage, there IS some improvement in this area, but it's still rock bottom. The age of flying night cargo for multi time is also winding down. Checks have moved to mostly electronic, and "just-in-time" delivery pathways are getting killed by the reduction in manufacturing in the auto industry. In another year or two, it's going to be a bear for guys to build ME time.

Assuming in two years that there still is a regional industry (and we're all not riding bikes to our jobs in agriculture), you get hired and now face 3-5 more years of poverty wages waiting to upgrade.

There IS still some money to be had flying corporate, but who knows what's going to happen to that segment. As public scrutiny comes to bear on these bailouts, lots of CEO types might be flying coach...you just never know.

Not to be forgotten is the "lost money". The money you would have made had you stuck to what you were doing.

Consider where that money might be better spent....law school (I understand there's a huge need in bankruptcy law), med school, MBA and so on. You might be better off trading up and earning the money to own your own aircraft. And discount what you hear about "I'm not smart enough for med school"...I call BS. I spent two years teaching college kids...the ones who went to med school aren't any smarter than the average person, but they were driven. All it takes is mental elbow grease.

I'm not trying to dissuade you. Far from it, but you need to be aware of the cons to everyone's pros.

Nu

Just wanted to thank all the posters there. Great and encouraging info for the most part. I'm 39, coming out of Alaska flying and wrenching with 3500 hrs tt (But it's almost all single engine day VFR:cool:).
It is encouraging, even in these crummy times, to think there's a shot at flying something a little heavier than a Beaver someday.
For the original poster- I wrote a bit about Alaska flying jobs under an APCF thread regarding same. Check it out. Hope it helps or is encouraging.
As far as age in case you go North for a bit- don't worry too much. Yes, there's some youngsters (we had a pilot who could fly but wasn't allowed to drive the company vans because of insurance!) but Alaska passengers really like to see old grizzled looking pilots sitting up front!
Cheers,

Rickair -

Do you mean actually starts training from day 1 or do you mean gets into the first 121 job? I hope you mean someone who hasn't started his first step towards his PPL by that age :eek:

USMCFLYR

Why not? A buddy of mine gave up his computer business at age 41, soloed shortly thereafter and after 4 years worth of time-building which included flying parachute jumpers and later working at a small commuter airline he ended up at one of the LCC airlines where he's now a captain.

It's unusual but definitely possible.

I mean entry level, which includes UPT. Military guys routinely get major airline jobs in their early thirties, which is about the best that most civilian pilots can hope for.

AV8OR -

Not sure that you meant to use my quote or not. I wasn't saying whether someone could or could not. I was actually asking what the previous poster meant by the statement. If I were trying to get into the business I would like to think that I'm not too old to be a widebosy CA. Btw - he did specifically say a widebody CA - and I'm assuming that means some extra time on top of being a LCC CA.

USMCFLYR

Been in the business 7 years. Highest Yearly income was a hair over $49K. (and thats with tons of O.T.) Regional. Then made the move to LLC. First year pay should be illegal. Then got furloughed, again. I've made about $16K this year. Still drive an old crappy car, slept in dumpy crash pads ,or on an air mattress somewhere, and you'd have to be an extremely lucky person to not have to commute. Just wanted to make sure you heard the 'glamorous' side. But hey, best of luck. You never know in this business, you may be one of the lucky ones! Roll them dice!!

2Co2-

Maybe you could give your age, times and background for a little perspective.

31, 5500 TT, EMB A320 type

Heyas,

This post brings up some GREAT points.

Some guys are used to being a perpetual "college student", such as living in a rat trap, driving a broken down, rusted out sh!tbox, sleeping on an air mattress and being able to pack all of your belongings in a single cardboard box. You'll need this because you'll either move every 8-14 months, or commute.

When guys talk about "giving it all you got" and "if you want it bad enough" THIS is the lifestyle they're talking about.

If you have any kind of significant other in your life, you can bet they'll hit the highway long before the dollars start rolling back in. If you're close in age, the early thirty's becomes the age where a home, kids and an upgraded standard of living starts coming in to play for your "other".

Going in the other direction will most surely lead to EXTREME relationship stress. I don't care if they say they "understand", they don't. If married, plan on divorce...it's that simple. It doesn't matter how much you promise "honey, it will get better", all they know is that you're not there NOW...that is, gone for up to 20 days a month. I'd say the casualty rate for relationships with this kind of move is close to %85.

Hate to be a buzzkill, but there are always consequences. Best to plan for them.

Nu

My bad, for some reason I misunderstood and thought you were replying to the original post:

" ...I just started pursuing my pilots license. I am 32 now. I plan to get this done and be ready to apply within 5 years (for at least the regionals). I have been told that airlines are hesitant to hire anyone past the age of 32. Does anyone know if there is any thruth to this? I appreciate all your feedback... "

My point is simply to disregard any and all possible discriminators in our lives in order to succeed. Your age, gender, color of skin, etc, etc. should never be something you should worry about; besides there’s nothing you can do about those factors anyways so let it go.

We as pilots keep trying to reach our ultimate goals by applying, interviewing and re-interviewing with many different airlines throughout our careers. In a way we let others to make the hiring decisions for us - we just hope to skew their decisions in our favor.

The original poster said “I have been told that airlines are hesitant to hire anyone past the age of 32” and my reply to that is screw everything you ever “heard” from others and simply apply, apply and re-apply - be the best you can be and don't worry about things you can't change. Let others make those decision for you and hopefully you can 'guide them' in the right direction through your dedication and perseverance.

Hopefully I’m making some sense here…

Nu,
I second that emotion...
So there I was, a few years back.
Wrenching on a 520 in Juneau.
Pulling the fuel injector nozzles for cleaning.
All proud of myself because I'd earned my A+P the old school way of being an apprentice, after wiping many a Beaver and Otter's belly free of oil. For not much money or real security.
I had the Commercial license in my pocket, but at that time it took way more than I had recorded in my logbook to actually get paid for flying there.
I felt proud to be earning a paycheck, in aviation, in my late 20's, after doing a whole bunch of other stuff like being in the Navy, getting a college degree, commercial fishing, and running construction equipment. My wife had a good job and we were getting by without too much shoving.
Well, I digress. I apologize.
As I said, I was doing my thing on the front end of the 207 there, and into the hangar walks this goofy lookin' skinny old timer wearing a cowboy hat and boots.
Proceeds to walk up to me and ask if I'd happen know anything about flying floatplanes.
Well, I did. A little. I'd rebuilt an old 1949 PA-11 that I just happened to have sitting down there at the float pond bobbing gently on Edo 1320's.
Ended up taking this old timer Texas Lear pilot out to Admiralty island for a bit of sight-seeing on a rare sunny Southeast AK day. We saw some brown bears, eagles up close, and generally had a pretty cool flight puttin' above that wilderness in the Cub with the door open.
Well as you probably guessed, a few of us mechanics, some pilots, and he and his right-seater, we ended up sharing some beers and wisdom when we got back.
That old timer told us a couple of things that I remember.
First, that if I ever ended up in Texas, to look him up for a job.
And second, that doing what we all did was pretty hard on marriages.
He was on his fourth, I believe.
But he was having a good time.
He told us he'd gotten afflicted with AIDS.
Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome.
And I reckon I got afflicted with it too. I got divorced a few years ago. It sucked. And I reckon there's a whole bunch of other pilots and aviation types out there that are displaying the symptoms in their marriages.
But here's the way I see it- Would we be better at a relationship if we had a different career? Would we still be who we want to be, see what we want to see, if we were managing a coffee shop, selling insurance, performing brain surgery, staying home every night? All kinds of people get split up, and some of them it won't matter how much time they spend together. Maybe there's some hot loving loyal female out there that gets this dilemma, she works the night shift at the Tulsa Denny's maybe? Or maybe she's a pilot too?
It ain't that bad, doing what we do. I hope.
And if it is, it's only going to get better.
Chin Up.

Kilgore -

Nope....tried to date her in the late 80's and she could have cared less about someone being a pilot :o

So...are you heading to TX soon? What did that old skinny cowboy do for a living?

USMCFLYR

AV8OR -

I was saying hat I certainly would hope hat airlines would hire someone *breaking ito the industry past the age of 32* or else I have a lot of peers who are going to be greatly disappointed - though less now than in the past I'll admit.

USMCFLYR

I was 35. The biggest thing that will put you over the top is doing something other than flight instructing. By that I mean flight instruct but get some commercial flying in as well. It sounds like you are not going to the big schools with a marketing department buying interviews at airlines so you'll need to be very competitive with your times. Try to get some multi turbine. Age never once came up at an interview though. Colgan won't like you because you are a little older and may be able to make a decision on your own, they'd rather be able to tell you what to decide. Other than that an airline job is in your future.

Where can you get log-able multi-turbine time when everyone wants at least 135 mins? (>1200 tt) I should have 135 mins in about a month or so, but what about the new career changers? I am in Florida, the land of a million hungry CFIs so opportunities are not as readily available through networking as they might be almost anywhere else. :( I considered getting a part-time ramper job just for the opportunity to meet people and network some more outside of my career-oriented flight school.
I do have the opportunity to right seat in a Twin Otter for sky-diving ops, but none of it is log-able because it is a single pilot operation and the guy is not a CFI, MEI, or even ATP.

I hope the industry is better shape for you in five years.