Steve,

How about calling it BoylesB&G.

There's an original thought!

But, it identifies the purpose. Just make sure you keep it accessible to furlough category pilots please.

Not a site endorsed by ALPA so pilots just need to understand that their posts are their responsibility and that mgmt will get the info. Nuff said.

Frats
Lee

A few questions for Steve, Lambourne and anyone else that can enrich the discussion. I have watched and been disgusted with ALPA for over 30 years now- My dad walked the Eastern picket line in Atl when the EAL MEC called the strike over (The LECs had other ideas).

I hate airing dirty laundry for public consumption, but what is our MEC screwing up so badly? I haven't seen good MEC leadership since Dubinsky, and even that could be argued. Whiteford would not take my calls and we got sold down the river with the 2003 raping.

Isn't the forum shutdown to limit the liability damage to ALPA in the event of labor unrest. I would think that would be prudent.

What realistically could our MEC be doing now with the court finding and with dealing with The Tilton Gang?


Thanks and feel free to pm

Carpe Diem

At least Dubinsky, Whiteford and Bathurst were smart enough to keep us out from under the supervision of a Federal judge! There were times during all three of those administrations (and I had a front row seat) that getting hauled into court was a distinct possibility. Wallach lost control of his troops. Once the IRC had a freee hand to do whatever they wanted without any supervision from the MEC office, the die was cast. All management had to do was start gathering information, and they did that very effectively. Hell, they even had the brass nuts to use KC "delays" against us! After you and I and most pilots had stopped caring about whether they assigned a delay to us or not. We laid back and let the operation dump on us when they couldn't perform and they used that against us. Incredible.

I see this as a failure of leadership. I watched how Mark Bathurst worked management and the BOD. While most pilots will never know how effective he was, what he did worked. Now, we didn't get any big gains during that four years, but on the other hand we weren't HAMMERED by a Federal judge and had ALL of our negotiating leverage STRIPPED from us.

What leverage do we have going into Section 6 right now? I can't think of any. We will get what management gives us and not a thing more due to Wallach and his little minions on the MEC. I've watched some of these clowns first hand and will tell you that there are several with so little intellectual capability it is amazing they are allowed to fly airplanes. We are in a very deep hole, largely due to the incompetence of several MEC members and their officers.

The shutdown of the forum is merely "damage control." They are afraid of their shadow right now and more importantly afraid of the pilots they purport to represent. The forum shutdown is a symptom of a far greater problem - the inability to lead and the overall credibility of the MEC.

Realistically, there is little they can do. They have built themselves a box that they have to live in. They are now just attempting to maintain control over a pilot group which has seen, through the discovery process, that they are being "led" by incompetents. If you have not read the depositions, I would urge you to do so. They are still available. They paint a very sad picture of an organization lacking control and discipline. Dealing with the "Tilton Gang"? Fat chance. Won't come from this group.

Steve

Yes, Steve I watched you on the front row when I was a new 727 engineer in the 90's. I have been on Mil Leave for a couple of years. My only answer to what leverage we have is the ultimate, strike. The bigger problem is; how can group after group continue to take concessions without somebody taking a stand and drawing a line in the sand. I am tired of waiting until next time.

I haven't been around much recently, hence my previous questions.

Lets kick some mgt poontane (sp)- thats what they are

Carpe Diem

Exactly on target as shown by the statement shown prior to signing into the ALPA message board:

Quote:

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All pilots should be aware in particular of the ongoing legal obligation to comply with the decision and order of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois, issued in United’s lawsuit against ALPA and four individual defendants. The Court ordered ALPA, the individual defendants, and the pilots of United Airlines not to engage in, promote or encourage any slowdown, sick-out, work to rule campaign, refusal to accept voluntary or overtime flying, or other concerted refusal to conduct pilot operations in the normal manner.

Every pilot, whether employed at United or another carrier, who participates in this or any ALPA forum or other communications method must refrain from engaging in any discussion regarding unlawful concerted activity at United or any other carrier, and must refrain from any comment on the pending United court case. This includes initiating or replying to any such post. Such posts will be removed immediately, but will be discoverable in a court proceeding and may form the basis for a ruling from the Court that the posting individual as well as ALPA have violated the Judge’s order and are therefore in contempt of court. Such a finding could lead to fines and other penalties against the individual pilot.

---

In 1999 the APA went on a sickout. A federal judge considered it an illegal job action and ordered them all back to work. APA leadership didn't comply with the order to Judge Kendall's satisfaction and he fined them $45M. The APA didn't have the money and needed a loan. By the time the loan would have been paid off their lack of judgment would have cost the 10,000 members of the APA $90,000,000. For you Marines, this means each pilot would have paid $9000 over the 15 year loan period or $600 a year above their normal dues. Not very smart. Sometimes judges are wrong or injust, but their orders must be complied with or suffer the consequences.
ALPA was right to temporarily shut down the MEC message board. They are seeking ways to open it back up and still be in compliance with the judge's orders.

Unfortunately, without a universal standard or, as some have suggested, a truly National Pilot Union instead of a loose confederation, you might as well draw that line in front of an advancing tide. You'll go down fighting, but you'll still go down. Not sure about you, but I reserve suicide missions only as a last resort. Fight, but fight smart.

What total crap, and I expected more from you. Let me say that when I took office I offered to answer questions if you had them. The offer is still open and you can call me at anytime. 719-331-8473.

This MEC is not hiding or afraid of the pilots they represent. I took Q&A for 5 hours the day of the Injunction and 3 hours the following day. If more than 50 pilots would show up to a Council meeting, they would have information and a idea of what has gone on over the last year.

Yet, after living inside an MEC administration, I know you fully understand what is gumming up the works right now, so I take these comments as staging. Good for you Steve, that is just what the pilots need right now. If you actually believe some of what you are saying, and knowing you, I am speechless.

Remember one thing, it was a seperate forum, not controlled by the MEC or ALPA that created alot of issues. So by all means, you should continue to promote yet another avenue that created the present opening on this property for management. Good for you.

Seems to me the order said the alleged job action started with the Bathurst FIN program, so .......please. We both know the truth about that, just as every pilot on the property knows just how valid the KC delay progam was and still is around here.

You had an avenue to education, you just didn't take advantage.

As for past effectiveness...

Lets see: Nope, I won't air the dirty laundry on this public, extremely public forum.

But being an ex-Communication guy, I am sure you have a reason or goal.

Rick

By the way, the forum will be back. The sky is not falling!

den rep, can you respond to steve's original post concerning the money being collected with this furlough fund? It does seem excessive.

My memory of the timeline seemed to indicate that FIN was created after the MEC knew TA1 was on the way. Also, IIRC FIN was also a product of the incoming term of SW.

Not sure I agree that the MEC is afraid. I believe it is more incompetence than fear. Reading the court testimony reveals a MEC that is embarassing to have as a representation.

In the conversations I have had with fellow pilots it seems fewer and fewer would support your position. Not too many pilots can point to anything that has improved since SW took office. In fact it seems that we have taken several steps backwards as a result of his actions.

The challenge to see how many people really support SW would be to throw the Hat switch to "ON" and see what happens. With the FOM change I have a feeling that would be a good barometer of what people think about the current MEC.

L

I was in the first group furloughed, and still do not have a job. The job market is getting tougher every week, and even worse with flying jobs.

My cobra subsidy from the company has run out, so here is my cobra bill for January: 484.20 for single coverage(PPO option), 86.77 for family dental(Metlife).
Total: 570.97

My monthly mortgage,for a house bought 2005, before the bust and layoff: 1768.00 (Bought while a regional captain...)

Unemployment payments: 1664.00/month.
Wife's disability: 700.00
Total income: 2364.00

It is obvious how badly we need this cobra subsidy. My mortgage and cobra roughly equal my unemployed income. So, there is no money for food, utilities, gas, or debt payments.
The choices are bad. Sell the house? There is a real possiblility I'd owe the bank after the sale, due to values collapsing. Default, and ruin my credit, making renting or getting a job even harder.

As angry as i am at United for luring me away from a good job, only to pull the rug out, I am VERY GRATEFUL to my fellow pilots who are helping me stay in my home, and to care for my spouse, by providing me with health insurance.

I understand the issue here is how much you are being assessed, and I hope it is only what is necessary. Just thought I would emphasize the need, and how thankful I am for the MEC's action, and for the sacrifice you are making on my behalf. I won't forget it. I've served alpa on committees and Mec, and will in the future....
Sometimes I, too wonder about alpa, but remember, who is treating our passengers and our employees as people with value?

IT AINT THE COMPANY.....it is you....