Realistically
 

With the way the economy is right now especially in the United States, how long would it take to make it to the right seat of a major airline (preferably one like Air Canada, WestJet, or Delta. Im finally starting flight school in February, and am just curious with the way things are going. Thanks for the help.

10+ years.

Good Luck!

Hello all. 1st post:

Depends how long the economy stays the way it is. Tough question to answer. Also, the age 65 rule is causing a little stagnation too.

I can't remember where I read it but speculators are saying 2 or 3Q of 2009 till economy turns around.

In the meantime, acquire your pilot ratings and build your flight time. Their will be a lot of pilots out there with more flight time and experience than you trying to go where you want to go.

Best of luck to you!

20+years....by then, we'll be tele-porting everywhere anyway...:D
Ummm...I'd guess about 2 years for flight school and time building if you are aggressive, then 3-5 as a regional FO, 2-3 as a regional CA...so anywhere from 7-10 years is a reasonable and reachable goal. Economy could continue it's downward spiral and extend that time frame to 12 years+ or it could turn completely around late 09 and airlines begin expanding again in 2010/11 cutting that 10 year time to 6. I'd be more specific but it's cloudy here today and I can't see the appropriate constellations.

There are thousands and thousands of furloughed pilots including myself wondering about that same question.;) I have only been in the airlines for 8 years now and I am back in the right seat of a regional again.:mad: So it's really hard to tell. Good luck!!!!

If you go military, 10 years and while you're in you'll be making good money. But then again, DON'T join the military unless you want to serve your country.

-Fatty

Don't do it
 

Don't get into aviation period. Go in a different direction. Fly for a hobby. This profession is headed in the wrong direction. The pay and benefits don't compensate for the long hours. It is the only profession that your experience does not get you a better paying job. It sucks ! If things continue at the current rate all regionals will be sweat shops (close already) and growing daily. And the better paying jobs are going away. Why start a profession with this bleak of an outlook? Look at what an Airline pilot was paid 20+ years ago and check todays pay rates! Sorry, Just the facts. :eek: Become a plumber,electrician etc.

Thanks everyone for your help. That is kind of the timeframe I was thinking aswell. My last question, and im not sure if anyone here will be able to answer this or not. I'm Canadian, but I am going to take my flight training in the United States, and then working for a Regional down there, would you have to get full citizenship, or just a working visa/permit? Thanks again!

I would recommend getting your training in Canada. I'd check up on it but I'm fairly sure that a canuck ATP would be better than an FAA.

I know some of my friends who have gone overseas to fly had to ditch their FAA ATP because it wasn't recognized. Probably because anyone can go pay $500 bucks to an ATP factory.

-Fatty

As an X foreigner, I will answer that one; get a US citizenship ASAP. Far less hassle and you also show dedication. Although the pessimistic responses you have received is somewhat accurate, I would never swap my job/career with anyone. I loved it since day 1, despite being fourloughed, replaced, had my earnings cut 80%, and lots of other not so funny occurances. Just hang in there and be 100% sure you really want to go through with it. Once you are half way there it is VERY hard to stop and make a career change. Once you reach your goal you will realize it still is the best job in the world. Best of luck to you.

The economy can turn around tomorrow and mainlines will not be hiring. Places like RAH already have it in their contract to fly up to 99 seat jets... regionals with their crappy pay and work rules will grow, while mainlines are outsourced to the regionals. Sad, but true.

This profession is eating itself apart from within

are you not listening? ask yourself WHY you want to be an airline pilot?
you are under paid, overworked, exposed to extreme civil and in some cases criminal liability, treated poorly by your employer and a whole list of other reasons NOT to fly for an airline. As for flying for a regional airline... take all the above, double it, take it to the max, and you'll only have an inkling of how bad it has become.

take that other guys advice. Invest the same time and money and get an education in Law or Medicine... make great money, run you're own practice, and buy yourself a nice King Air 200 to go play pilot in with the wife and kids.... most of us, if given the choice to do it all over again, would not do things the way we have.

Yes, flying is fun, yes flying is a sick addiction to which we all suffer it's curse... but, if you can live a better quality of life doing another thing you like, it will allow you to more fully enjoy flying so that it stays fun and enjoyable instead of becoming just your job.

It really depends, as many have said it here, you could hit it at the right time and spend only a couple of years at the regional level and then go to a major, or you could get stuck at the regional level for 7-8 years before you see the right seat of a major.

Two things to consider which no one has mentioned is the fact that things do work a bit different in Canadia, and the fact that now a days is who you know not what you know, if you don't believe me, ask anyone at CAL how many regional f/o's with zero PIC they hired between 05 and 07.

My suggestion, is network as much as you can, in this industry it seems that it breaks down to 25% skill, 25% timing, 50% who you know and luck....

Best of luck.

Amen
 

Listen to facts..........Do something else. Well said Mason32 ! This industry Sucks ! It may take you years to figure it out.......In the end it is the worst career choice anyone could make ! Don't DO IT !:(

im graduating law school this year =) but don't really feel like sitting in an office all day, thanks though.

or, you could put in 10 years at a regional, go to a major, get furloughed within a year due to : terrorism, fuel, management incompetence, etc. and then be a flight instructor, again!

It's all true...

Maybe never...
 

Hey LAX,

I want to be as unbiased and honest with you as possible regarding your genuine question, and I will be. But I must preface my answer with a statement: Aviation is wonderful fun and can be rewarding, but this is a 5hitty business to be in.

My answer to how long depends first on hard work and money (or proud service to your Country) to get your start in aviation, but most honestly, the rest depends on luck and timing. The aviation industry can be paralleled by the starlets who head to Hollywood to fulfill their quest for silver screen fame dream, only to end up in the adult film industry:(. Think Hollywood, Nashville, or anywhere else that people would actually pay to do a job. Maybe we love flying too much. And their luck can turn on a dime.

So your time after civilian flight school or military training and commitment can vary.. If it's military training, then deployment, then I would say as little as 5 to 7 years. If, however, you are cutting grass at an FBO, washing and fueling planes, the CFI, then 135, the regionals.. It could take 7, 10, 20 years, or I'm sorry to say, never. There are no guarantees in this business; Just ask the pilots of Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, etc. Even the pilots at United, Delta, and American have suffered tremendous, decades-back loss to their pay, pension, and working conditions.

This business is a crap shoot... 15 years ago, nobody would have thought that UPS, FDX, SWA, and Netjets would be the top flying jobs in pay, stability, and working conditions. Heck, Netjets was pay-for- training back then and just look at them now. And look at SWA! What do they all have in common? None of them, except SWA now, is considered a "major"... I know many pilots that have done everything "right". They followed Kit Darby's book to the letter.. They went to ERAU, Purdue, UND, Parks, etc. (name your expensive 4-year aviation college here) and then went to the Military with their ratings. They served their country and continue to serve in the Guard or Reserves. Then they got out to the same bleak reality that we all face here in this industry: Pensions cut (while management takes $40 or $172 million), furloughs, terminations, and general bad news. And that was before the economic collapse of recent months. Some of them never made it to the "major" even though they did eveything right. So they find themselves furloughed, or never made it to, their "dream" company. Now they find themselves in the right seat of an RJ, or even on the street with a mortgage and family. No guarantees:(.

LAX, follow your dream and don' t let anyone tell you can't. But listen to the wounded survivors that are returning from the front and follow your dream with your eyes open. Always have a plan B and learn an enjoyable trade or skill that has nothing to do with flying planes. If you persist, you will have a good career wherever you go because you love it. I know pilots who have been through 2 furloughs and 2 training cycles in 6 months, who have been furloughed twice before, that say that they have had a good career and "love it" (despite what it has done to them). Think Hollywood, Nashville, or any street corner where you see a starving artist with a guitar still trying to make it (They wait tables during the day to make ends meet). But they don't quit and they are there because, like us, they love "the music". So follow your dream, but know that there are no guarantees anywhere in this flying business.

Good luck chasing your dream, LAX. Keep fighting and don't give up!

In Unity,

B727DRVR:cool:

If it's something you really want to do I say go for it. No matter what career you choose you'll have to work hard for it and there will be ups and downs so it better be something your interested in. I've had plenty of people tell me to get out of the industry and do something else, but I've stuck with it and don't regret it....even though I'm in the middle of the Congo right now because I got furloughed from a major airline. Keep an open mind and be optimitistic.

Graduating law school ? And now you want to get into aviation ? Your smarter than that !! Stay in your office M-F 9-5 and fly on your own time.
Don't be a fool ! Aviation is overated !

thanks for the advice B727DRVR, and 72944, I am well aware of the risks in the business, I could just take my law degree and have a cushy job, but nothing in life has come easy for me, and I know it takes hard work and alot of dedication, to make it anywhere. like they say nothing worth it is easy right? If worse comes to worse and the industry just isn't working out, for whatever reason, I do have my law degree, so I am not to concerned.

Hmmm, and you are?

Anyhow, do what you love but know what you are getting into. If you are the type that feels you are owed $200K plus a year, you probably aren't going to be happy. If $140K and being gone from home a lot is acceptable, start your training now.

-Fatty

Last time I checked I made under $24,000 as a first year FO. I'm jus' say'n. Why on earth would you want to fly for a US regional when a canadian one like JAZZ pays alot more for first year FO's? then again your gonna get taxed like hell up there...

If you love to fly, can put up with more abuse than you can even phathom from crew scheduling and the company, love cheap hotels and their cruddy vending machines then aviation isn't too bad. Oh well, you actually might enjoy it so you might as well give it a shot and find out for yourself.

lax, you're hearing some strong opinions from some folks who have had bad luck in the career. I've had great luck with it, and would encourage you to pursue it if it's what you want. Not everybody is a good fit for the job, and you'll be gone half the time, but I still think it's a worthy job, and I'd do it again if I had it to do over...even now. But that's just me.

You are in a special position because you have a great fallback with the law degree. You could give flying a try and if it doesn't work out, you have a great plan B.

I don't know how easy it would be to get the legal right to work in the US, so you might have a hard time getting hired here. If you did your training in the US, you'd have to convert to Canadian licenses to work at WestJet or Air Canada. You might be better off training in Canada.

I knew a Canadian guy who came down here because he said the training was cheaper... is that why you decided to train in the US as well?
Since you made the decision to come here, you probably already have the work permit situation figured out. But if not...
It's not easy to find an aviation job in the US without legal right to work... certainly there are a couple of large flight schools that hire foreign CFIs and those places sponsor work visas. I know Canadian guys who teach at ERAU, and actually, they didn't even need a work visa like CFIs from other foreign countries. (They do need to file some other paperwork, forget what's called, but it's not as costly as a work visa.)
But to get hired by an airline... you'd need to be a permanent resident or citizen. I have to tell you, trying to get a green card legally is a very arduous and lengthy process. There were/are numerous foreign CFIs at ERAU who instructed there for 5-7 years while awaiting the green card process. (ERAU requires you to give them a certain amount service before they'll sponsor you for the green card (for INS purposes), and then once the green card process starts, it takes another 3-5 years, depending on each person and their circumstance and also how many times your lawyer screws up your paperwork.)
Then again, you can always invest several millions dollars or marry a US citizen. (the only 2 legal ways that I personally know of.)

We don`t get taxed to bad up here, but that was a question I was going to save for another day, but since it was brought up I might as well ask it. I have been looking and searching google for a while and can not find out the time requirements for JAZZ. Does anyone know

I always get a good chuckle when Americans point the finger at other countries and say "you pay high taxes." Seriously.

With federal/state/local income taxes (in some areas of the US), sales taxes, gas taxes, iPod & soft drink taxes (NYC), sin taxes, ammo taxes (yeah!), capital gains taxes, FICA taxes, phone use taxes, utilities taxes, etc. etc. your average schmuck can easily be paying 50% taxes. Add on mandated purchases like car insurance, auto emission testing, health and house insurance (be crazy not to buy at least catastrophic), etc. etc. . . .

America ain't the land of "low taxes" by any means.

OH . . . Jazz mins are kind of meaningless right now. All that really matter is "competitive minimums" when they're hiring, and they're liable to be quite high if the airlines start hiring again.

I think there are some great posts; from both sides of the aisle, so to speak.

Timing is EVERYTHING! It's also crucially important, in the long run, to go to work for a carrier that will survive. The thing is, what looks like the "best carrier" today likely will not be in a few years.

Having said all that, on a "good day" it's one of the best jobs in the world. The whole industry tends to ebb and flow (like a sine wave) and hopefully soon we all will be on the up swing again.

Whatever your decision, I wish you Godspeed.

Lax,
I have to agree with the rest. I am the Third Generation airline pilot in my family. I am 40 years old, I have been at a Major Airline for 5 years now. My father made more money than I do now over 30 years ago sitting in the right seat of a B727. This industry has degraded to a miserable excuse for a career. Sure I love flying, but not for a living. If you have a Law Degree, I would stick with it and start your own practice. Fly on the side. If you must join an airline, pick one that has a domicile in your home town and practice law the other 15 days a month. Personally I would not recommend this profession to my kids, and that is after a long line of Airline Pilots in my own family.

IMHO, I think you should take that law degree and go find a BIG law firm that will hire you to be a lawyer AND one of their pilots, of course for extra pay!!!!

If I had the money saved to live, I would quit now, go to med school and become a plastic surgeon.

In the mean time, will someone PLEASE fix the housing problem in Dubai so I can go get paid real pilot pay!!!!

That was not just CAL, it was Delta, USAir JetBlue and others... there was a lack of hiring for so long, than many regional Captains reached a pay grade where they could not afford to go back to new hire pay, even at a major. So, when the supply dipped, so did the requirement for PIC...
it was also the reason we saw so many people being hired at regionals with the ink still wet on their tickets.

laxislife,
You're Canadian, eh? Hello from an Alaskan neighbor. Good luck in whatever path you choose. Check out the following website too, lots of info for pilots from outside the U.S., or interested in work overseas and all that it entails as far as visas, citizenship, etc.. Good section for Canadian flyers too. Cheers, http://www.pprune.org/

facts
 

I am giving the kid facts. This career is brutal to more people than it is kind. If you don't know this, wait and you will see. I would not wish this career on anyone. Most people in this career would step on their grandmother to help their own career. If you think this career is a stable,rewarding and a great way to make a living you are on a controlled sustance.

"If you think this career is a stable,rewarding and a great way to make a living you are on a controlled sustance."

Well, I'm not. I'm just speaking from my experience. Some people's experience has made them quite bitter and angry about the career. That's understandable. But to say that one is on drugs unless one knocks the career is silly and inaccurate. But, whatever floats your boat....

There is a very large portion of the pilot community that agrees with de727 here. It's just a majority of them work at Netjets, UPS, FDX, Southwest and they have a right to love this career.

Going through my first furlough right and not really making ends meet but there still isn't anything else I want to do for the rest of my life.

Everyone complains about being gone 4 days at a time but I have been told that if I am not recalled soon I need to do something because the "Warden" had gotton used to her time alone at home and misses it.

I agree with almost everything you’ve said except when it comes to ERAU "sponsoring green cards" - I'm fairly certain ERAU (and other universities) cannot sponsor a person for a green card. Instead, they'll sponsor the students with time limited F1/M1 or J1 visas which are basically student/training visas that allow students part time “practice jobs” in the field of their studies such as flight instructing in the field of aviation, etc.

I think the people you were talking about who waited 5-7 years or so were foreign student who went through the process on their own (marriage, “green card” lottery, business visa exchanged to green card, etc, etc.) and while they were waiting for their paper work to be squared away they kept flight instructing mainly because the visas they had in effect "locked them" to a specific work place.

Just wanted to clarify that…


Also, laxislife - in response to Boredwlife's post above - I'm now at UPS and I do love what I do for a living. However, I loved it even when I flew for a nearly defunct commuter airline making $25k a year. Couldn't pay all my bills and kept maxing out my credit cards (some of which I'm still paying off ;)) but I loved it nevertheless.

By the way, your questions remind me of a former student of mine, he was a computer designer/engineer who gave up his successful career and his own small business venture to become a pilot at the age of ~38. He became a great captain and loved what he did even though everyone told him he'd made a mistake. Unfortunately, he died in an accident a few years later but when I ran into his brother one day he told me that his brother was the happiest when he worked as a commuter pilot... The flying meant more to him than all the money in the world...

It is a tough profession but in my opinion a great one...

If you are a Canadian citizen, why would you want to work here in the US when there seems to be better opportunities in Canada? Air Canada has a better pilot progression system than ours in that all their pilots, I am told, are under a one seniority system. Besides last time I flew to Canada, there seems to no shortage of airlines flying anything from B737 to DHC-8s.

What about the CAL requirement for 1000 PIC?

Most of the posts here say don't do it because of money. While I believe we all should be well paid and we are currently under-paid, money is not everything. Do what you love to do. If you love money, go for it. If you love flying, go for it. If you're lucky, you can have both.

It took me 21 years from the private pilot to major airline job. That is with years of instructing, corporate, and 9 at a regional. Most jobs paid poorly. Would I do it again? YES. Hell, yes. I loved every minute of it. I love flying. If I wasn't flying a 777 for an airline, I would be flying a bush plane in Alaska or banner towing in Florida. I don't care. I'm a pilot and I fly.

Take in what everyone is saying here, but remember where they are when they say it. Some of what they say is true, but there are lots of worse careers and jobs out there. Good luck with what you decide.

They only required 1000 PIC not 1000 TPIC. So if you managed to log 1000 hours pic in a cessna before you went to a regional, you met the requirements.

What you said about providing new grads with time limited visas is true.
However, ERAU DOES sponsor green cards as well. At least, they have done so in recent history, I don't know if they still do it for a CFI hired today.
My own significant other and probably a dozen others have gotten their green cards this way. What you have to do is work there for a few years, and then they'll sponsor you. My SO started instructing part time as a student (2000), got sponsored after reaching a certain amount of dual given (2004) and just became a permanent resident (2008). The school even had to run an advertisement in the papers for the position before they started the green card process. The way this was explained to me is that obviously the govt isn't going to let any company sponsor a green card for any worker. The company has to basically prove that the type of worker they are looking for is hard to find in the US, which justifies the need to sponsor a foreigner. CFIs are plentiful in the US, but not experienced ones (which is why the school needs you to work there for some time before they'll sponsor you.) Then they need to show that they tried recruiting publicly, which is the reason for running those ads.
All in all, it's a very long and difficult process, but pretty much the only option for some of these foreign guys. What I'm not sure of is why you would choose to take this road if you had other options available to you, as it seems to be the case in Canada.