Not so fast, Bush Sr. and Clinton were falling all over themselves proclaiming the wonders of NAFTA during the 92 campaign. The only candidate that was against it was PEROT. Remember him and the "giant sucking sound"? Both the Dems and the Republicans put out all kinds of crap calling Perot a nut and claiming he was the one who did not understand NAFTA. So please get your sides straight.

Does AC do their own Airbus maintenance, or do they send it elsewhere, as your previous post indicates they do with 767 mx? Does anyone know why such an arrangement would work?

As a maintenance person myself, I have this conversation all the time in my office when I get with the planning guys and our managers to pick out an MRO.
The sad state is this: american repair stations do lousy work. And they are more expensive. The fact that the MRO use mexicans or usually, Salvadorans in sheet metal shops - makes no difference in quality. (usually they are really great)
When Ive been laid off the two majors I worked at, I "contracted". That is when the labor pool of mx workers are like migrants themselves, going from one repair station to the next until that C-check is over and there isnt another one behind it. And worse, the quality is bad because the pay is subpar- and worse than that and most impactful, the treatment is horrendous!
You have to believe me, you could be the hero that fixes everything the first time, but the day you **** up just once, youre fired. And I dont mean major foulup, just break something, or dont do it right the first time requiring more time "put on that task card" and youre out. I have literally seen workers show up on a job that they got sent to in Mobile, only to find that it was cancelled. You foot your own nickel to get there and you leave empty handed. But I digress....
The best work we get is out of Singapore and Haeco (in HKG), even TAECO (in xiamen) and they are also the least expensive. We also use KLM.
The tragedy is that Boeing did NOT consider performing 747-400 freighter conversions in the US like Kansas or Missouri where they used to, they went directly to TAECO. So Boeing is in fact NOT investing in America.

From my point of view, the safety and lower incident rates are due simply to technology and manufacturing. I've worked both Boeing and airbus, and theyre built well, I dont think there are many jobs a mechanic could foul up. So I feel no qualms about getting on any airplane. It flew in, it'll fly out.

As for the economic discussion going on here, one poster was right: China isnt buying Boeings because it wants to, it does it because thats all we make they need. In fact when they try to buy Airbus, Pres. BUSH literally had to strong arm one airline to split its order halfway between Boeing and Airbus.

The whole idea of trickle down economics is bunk because the rich who get so obscenely rich dont really spend that much more than the average american to make an impact on the worker. If I lost my job today, I wouldnt find another 50k a year job, I'd wind up working at Home Depot for 28k.

Ironically, its funny how airline pilots who made upwards of 200k a year for decades are talking about the dwindling middle class.

Interesting. Both Hong Kong and Singapore are effectively city-states with relatively immobile work forces, thereby precluding a migrating system like the one you describe in the US... Would you say that this has a positive impact on the quality of work that they provide?

Im not sure if AC does their own Airbus maintenance. They are part of the new Maintenance Repair & Overhaul (MRO) Network for Airbus. With a fleet the size of JetBlues I would imagine they are going to have to send their airbuses else where for maitenance. At the Vancouver heavy maitenance base they said they have only been working on Delta Aircraft exculsivly for the last year or so.
These arrangments seem pointless. I guess Delta and Jet Blue are heavily overpaying.
Their other big clients are United and Mexicana.

You keep making it sound like the unemployment rate is out of control. This is simply not true. As I previously posted the unemplyment rate has consistantly averaged right around the ideal 5 percent.

Why is China buying tons of our air frames and not building their own now? Their need is there, they have the money, space, and technology; but still they continue to buy our frames with no end in sight.

The trade deficit and outsourcing are two completely different animals. Most economists don't even concern themselves with the trade defict as it really is not a big deal. Check out the website and get a clue:
http://www.ou.edu/class/econ3003/book/area1c35.html

Where are you getting this from??? Outsourcing has been going on for decades and the unemployment numbers have spoke for themsleves. Ford closes down a bunch of plants in the states, Toyota, Nissan, and others built new plants in the states. People just move from one place to another. If a guy loses his job, he dosen't sit on his ass feeling sorry for himself and look sympathy, he goes and finds another job. Once again, middle class America is alive and well.

I don't know how to make it any more clear, outsourcing is not a bad thing. Ryane has provided you with 2 perfect examples. Your so tied up in your Keynesian economics (the circle is there but your choosing not to see it) and thinking the entire middle class of America is unemployed, you fail to see the big picture - outsourcing is not a bad thing.

Wow this thread has two topics at once.

First JMT21 you talk about how the unemployment rate has remained constant for the last fifty years. I agree with you but the question I ask you is what is the quality of the jobs that people are getting. For example, you have a small town that has a group of mom and pop shops selling goods to the town, employing people with jobs that pay above minimum wage. Then you get a big company who comes in and opens up a lost cost super center who sells everthing for cheaper and that shuts the small businesses down. Now the unemployment rate has not changed but now the wage rate has gone down, so that now affects quality of life of people in the town and to top it all off the big business is now taking all of the revenue out of the city and lining share holders pockets. But gosh darn it unemployment stayed the same. And I know you are thinking "hey they are paying less though now" but think for one minute you save what a few dollars on useless things but you lose two dollars an hour in wage and the business owners are now poor like you.

Second thing is about the trade defecit. It is bad because with the endless cycle this country is in of soaring defecits and a soaring trade defecit, what do you thing is going to happen. If you look at the dollar it is going down which means now we have to pay more dollars to buy the same product from another nation. Just think oil.

So not only are we taking money away from the people with offering lower paying jobs but now it is costing more money to get the same stuff. But gosh darn it I have to agree out source all of those jobs so we can pay less for stupid useless ****.

Are you talking about a company moving its factory overseas, or are you talking about wal-mart moving into town? It sounds like the latter. Look at who works at a place like wal-mart - lots of high school/college students, a few older folks, few disabled folks, and few of your typical working class folks. Who you don't see is many of the former mom and pop type employees. If a job sucks and dosen't pay enough, do you keep working there? No, this is America, you go find some greener grass.

When talking about outsourcing, realize that the times are always changing. What happened to the blacksmiths, saddle makers, elevator operatos, and soon to be auto workers? The times change, people lose their jobs, but people are also able to adapt and move on to something else.

What do I think is going to happen??? Nothing, not a single thing. I don't think you checked out the website in my previous post, please do so.

Go re-read ryanes examples, If it cost more to make things after outsourcing, it would never have been outsourced to begin with.

The site speaks of the poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer - it says little about middle class America. Go for a drive, check out the suburbs, this is middle class America. Are they deserted, falling apart, or turing into a new ghetto? No, they are growing and doing so rapidly all across America. Middle class America is fine.

The growth of Suburbia is fueled by the skyrocketing costs of living closer to urban centers. A good example would be all the people that commute two hours up the 101 into San Francisco to work there when they can't afford to live there. Same in L.A. and New York, etc. Suburbia grows because people are moving there in droves for the "better schools", "less crime", or whatever other reason they can rationalize getting away from the dilapidated cesspools of the inner-city. Do you really think people intentionally saddle themselves up with an extra hour commute each way simply because their paycheck isn't suffering? No, it's because the sticks is all they can afford since they've been bottom-dollared at work. Instead of looking out your own suburban window, look out the window of a house that once belonged to a middle-class family in 1960s Detroit. Look at all the boarded-up houses that were once homes to families that had an auto plant worker bringing in the bread.

Since you seem to have only glanced over that link, let me point out a few key facts relevant to this argument that are mentioned there:

As real wages have declined, Americans are working longer hours to make ends meet. Today, the average American worker is, incredibly, working a full month longer each year compared to 20 years ago. The average American today is working longer hours than the people of any other major country on earth.

In recent years, everyone in the family has had to work harder to make ends meet. It is increasingly uncommon to see a middle-class family that does not have two breadwinners. The average middle-income family is working almost two months longer every year compared to 20 years ago. Whether they want to stay home with the children or not, many parents are now forced to work because their families need two incomes to pay the bills.

Between 1977 and 1997, the number of Americans putting in 50 or more hours jumped from 24% to 37%. During the same time, middle-income families increased their work hours by 4%, and productivity increased by 9.7% — but median family income (adjusted for inflation) grew only 0.6%.


****

All of those points suggest that America's middle-class is not doing as well as it was 20-30 years ago. We're alive, but certainly not doing as well as you believe.

Obivously you did not understand what i was trying to say, my point is that while we as americans countinue to buy items that are made in other countries at a growing rate while the value of the dollar against those same currencies that we buy these products from we are having to pay more american dollars for the same product we bought ten years ago. Since you may not understand this still i will use an example. If ten years ago a tv made in japan cost 100 yen to get to the USA it would cost us about let say 50 dollars. Well now that the dollar keeps droping now that TV which still cost 100 yen is going to cost 100 dollars, meaning it doubled in price. What fuels the drop of the dollar is the countinuing drop of the confidence in american fiscal policy.

Yes I was refering to walmart which is known for going into small commuties and destroying them with their supercenters. Maybe in the big cities where people have the chance to go somewhere else it is not as big. Were i grew when the first walmart went in, it shut down almost all of the smaller shops that sold things with in a ten mile radius.

One thing i think that is going to hurt americans also is the fact that the amount of credit in use today is alot higher then ten years ago. I have not worked numbers but it might be possible that this economic boom that bush and his cronies talk about is all on borrowed money. When this comes to a stop with the increase in interest rates what is going to happen?

Also I agree with the fact that 20 years ago most american families could survive on one income. Now days most barely survive on two with credit cards. That shows a trend were the middle class income is not keeping up with cost of living. But you look at the the top 5% of the country and they have increased the amount of money they make by alot. Just look at the Forbes riches people, there are a growing amount of multi billionares every year.

Thats pretty much it. They move out of the intercity to a place where they can have their clean air, little pink houses, a backyard, and whatever else. It was the pursuit of the American Dream that drove people to the suburbs, not the cost of living being out of control in the intercity.

What was once the suburbs is now the intercity. Look at all the new housing complexes going up in the present day suburbs.

After doing a little research I realized your getting your facts from a self declared democratic socialist. After all this and reading the banter you've been engaging on another thread, I can't say I'm surprised.

so as we were saying...
 

So will91, to answer your question on this topic - yes it is safe to fly on aircraft maintained overseas.!!

Not really. The reasons are as dynamic and varying as individual are.
Many move for the reasons you say. Some move for lower costs as was said before. Many admit to their me that they move to the 'burbs (like even in MN!) just so they can be away from blacks and Hispanics.
I personally hate the city (and I'm a native new yorker) and prefer the burbs for lower cost of living, and slower pace and relative safety. Oh yeah and I cant afford to live in the city. Hell I cant live in the whole Northeast!



And? Read above


Lets not get crazy. Theres no need to flame the guy. We need a balance of both to be able to keep from going to the extremes of either end. Who says you have to be a socialist to be a democrat? Oh yeah, a republican!

Wow, a three and a half line run on sentence, thats impressive. If I understand correctly, inflation is what your concern is in the above. If you haven't taken a macroeconomic course I would encourage you to do so as it is a very complex issue.

Again, no one is making a person stay where they are at. Pack up and move to that greener grass if they are unhappy about the opportunities at their present location.

This thread begin as debating outsourcing, moved to the trade deficit, then onto the believed decline of middle class America, suburbs, inflation, and now this. Seriously, take some econ courses, read some books, educate yourselves some how. Most economic issues are far more complicated then they appear on the surface.

Agreed.

And what? As cities grow, the suburbs grow and the intercity grows. This would explain why you would see the boarded up house - what was once the suburbs is now the ghetto in some places.

I'm not saying extremes on either end are good, nor was I ever advocating that. Deadsticks got the facts in his above post form congressman Bernie Sanders who is a self proclaimed democratic socialist. :eek: I appologize I effed up my original post on the guy - he is a democratic socialist, not socialist democrat as I originally posted.:o It's late and I'm getting dyslexic.

Sorry but I do not think you have to take an economics course to realize that the middle class is declining, the state of the US economy is starting to decline, the housing market is starting to tank, the interest rates are going up because of inflation, Walmart is the biggest low wage employer in the world, and the rich are getting richer every day. Get your nose out of the books and look at the real picture of America and then apply the knowledge you have to the problem that is there.

And if I wanted an english grade I would go back to college. This is a forum and I am not going to take the time to reread my post to please others.

Open Skies
 

What about when they begin to outsource pilot jobs? When open skies takes effect you could see a Chinese crew up front of your next ride on a regional. Why wouldn't Skywest or any other company hire contractors to take over crew training and staffing? US pilots fly all over the world what is to stop the world from flying here? It could happen.

SkyHigh

At this rate, the only jobs that will be left will be CEO jobs. The world needs ditch diggers too. Oh, wait, that's what the illegals are for.

Spoken like someone who has never taken the time to educate himself. Keep drinkin' that kool-aide the liberal media feeds you, your glass and theirs is clearly half empty. It's not everyday I get accused of hitting the books too hard...I'll take it as a compliment. In the mean time here are a few suggestions:
Number One
Number Two

Hey if you think the media is liberal then you really have no idea do you. I am not sure were you live but it must be the best place in the US because while you sit there and feed yourself BS about how great america is doing the rest of society is trying to figure out how to pay for their huge house payments, gasoline that has doubled in price in two years, and pay for medical insurance that has doubled in the last few years while the pay increases their job is suppost to give them to counter act this trend are non-exsistent. If you deny these facts you truly are not looking at the real picture of today. Well the good news is that eventually this sky rocketing deficit that this country countinues to carry will bankrupt all of us.

I have no use in arguing with someone who's tactics of debate has devolved to attacking their argument on the basis of who agrees with the facts of it. Would you immediately discard your opinion if you read somewhere that Hitler agreed with you?

I'm done with you.

I merely questioned the source of your believed facts like any sane person would have after realizing you cut and pasted them for some socialists website.

I think we've been done for awhile, so until next time...

Since you dispute the validity of Bernie Sanders' assertions, I went to the Bureau Of Labor Statistics and researched the average hourly earnings in the entire private sector from 1964-2005. Here is the data I found:

http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/graphics/CES...6343336557.gif

Since it is more or less an interactive function like Java, I will tell you how I compiled it so you can do the same. First, visit this weblink:

http://www.bls.gov/webapps/legacy/cesbtab4.htm

I then checkmarked the box for Constant (1982) Dollars so that the data wouldn't be affected by fluctuations in the Dollar, but would closely represent the buying power that an hour of labor actually has. This is tied to the CPI and I am sure you should be able to understand the relevance of that.

When you hit the "Retrieve Data" button, it will take you to a new servlet page with 1996-2006 data. I then changed the dates to start from 1964 and end at 2005. I also checked the box that says "Include Graphs (new)". Then I hit the GO button and that produced the new table.

As the BLS confirmed, average hourly earnings in the private sector were rising from 1964 to 1973, wherein they then took a turn and started falling.

It's still sad that you have to attack the source. After reading Bernie Sander's biography on that side, it would be no wonder that anyone who defends big business would not like the guy. His constituents, however, do. He was re-elected as an Independent seven times. Of course none of that seems relevant to you as he is just "some socialist".

Here's a tip for you: Next time you want to debunk any data that someone represents to be factual information, provide some counter-evidence instead of attacking your opponent or the sources of the data. Debating sources of data instead of the data itself only serves to reinforce the belief that facts are made true based upon who asserts them.

Nice to know info. Were screwed!:eek:

We have been screwed since regan was president in 1980. I am not a favor of either political party but it is interesting to note that the biggest gain in the last thirty years was during second term clinton.

Deadstick
 

Turns out you wern't through with me. I found your previous post very interesting to say the least as I had never seen the data graphed out before.

The up and downs of the graph are to be expected as the data is tied to the economy as a whole. Keep in mind that a horizontal line would be ideal, as a positively skewed line would be unrealistic. You probably already knew all that stuff, but just making sure we are on the same page.

I would encourage you to look at the last 15 years; you will find earnings have been on the rise. This is contrary to the morbid picture Mr. Sanders painted with his data.

Realize also that the data is not a picture of America as a whole. This is the footnote to the data:

Data relate to production workers in natural resources and mining and manufacturing, construction workers in construction, and nonsupervisory workers in the service-providing industries. These groups account for approximately four-fifths of the total employment on private nonfarm payrolls.

I addition, typically data such as this does not include the salaries of those in the service. I am unclear if this is the case or not.

You forgot to mention the part about him passing only one law and fifteen amendments in his eight terms in the House. He is an extremist that dosen't do anything.

I've enjoyed our banter, but I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I hope you and the wife have an enjoyable time in Las Vegas. See ya around.