Has outsourced repairs to Aeroman compromised America West safety
 

Greetings:

I apologize for posting in this forum since I am not a pilot but I'm not sure where else to turn at this point.

I purchased some tickets to hawaii for my family with America West only to learn that they are using Aeroman Taca in El Salvador for major repairs. This topic has raised quite a stir on the internet on several reputable sites such as the Washington Post. Other sites such as Aviation Today or Aviation Now seem to indicate Aeroman is indeed a reputable facility - despite the third world location.

I was wondering, if per chance, an America West pilot or someone else might comment on this topic. I have been worried sick the past few days on whether we should proceed with this trip.

Thank you in advance.

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I'm not a HP pilot but I used to work for TACA in El Salvador, as far as I know HP have been using AEROMAN services since 2004, they perform some major checks and they also give maintenance for Jetblue.
I haven't heard about any problem or incident related to the maintenance given by AEROMAN, but I've been living here in the states since 2005 so unless someone else knows something new I wouldn't be that worry about it.

Just my .02 cents.

Welcome to the world of "Out Sourced MX" going to the cheapest bidder, just so your tickets will be the lowest in history!

I've been flying for America West for almost 2 years now. I'm on the Airbus and that is the aircraft the facility down in El Salvador is contracted to work on, and during my time all of the planes I've flown have been in great condition, no major problems. All our Hawaii flying is on the Boeing 757's and the maintaince performed on those planes is all in house. As someone pointed out above, Jetblue has all their Airbus heavy maintaince performed my the same outfit as well. I've never been down there nor have I've seen the facility, however all I hear is great things about them, from what I hear the building where they perform the maintaince is so clean you can eat off the floor.

As a proud pilot for America West I can say you have absolutly nothing to worry about, so relax, and go enjoy your trip to Hawaii. Aloha!

I really do not see a problem with this. Everyone always complains about airline execs not doing anything. Well this is a good example of a way airlines are saving money. The word outsourcing has such a negative conotation to it, but outsourcing in the sense of letting another company do maintenance on jets for a cheaper price is a good idea.

Thanks everyone for the replies. They were very helpful!

By the way, this was the article that really shook me up...,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...092701467.html

although I also found other positive info about Aeroman...

http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/col/...157/index.html

JetMonkey, I really appreciate your information as an America West Pilot. Could you confirm something for me? I had a call into America West and they responded today that all heavy maintenance is down by Aeroman and El Salvador. They did not differentiate between the Boeing and Airbus planes. Can you inquire for me? Are the Boeings really not going to El Salvador? Are they going to Timco in Macon, GA? Jetblue had some landing gear issues potentially linked back to them. It is impossible for a passenger like me to ever get a answer like that. In any case, I appreciate your reassurance. I have read that many pilots, including America West, are members of ALPA and that they can basically refuse to fly a plane if they think it is unsafe any particular day.

Thanks!

You must not be an American to have written such a stupid comment!! You are for outsourcing mx jobs to another country so the airline execs can fatten their wallet. You must also agree that the middle class that built this great country is a negaitive conotation as well. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Pretty soon the USA will be a two tier society. I am not saying these particular places do not do good work, I would rather have the work stay in house, or at least within the USA. I guess some things actually do cross the border the other way and stay a while.

Since you so enjoy outsourcing, soon many of our professional aviator jobs will be outsourced as well with your attitude. Best of luck with your career, but with your attitude I hope it is a career CHANGE.

I am sorry, but I just don't agree with what you say. We live in a capitalist country. Our country is governed by the laws of economics. Everyone seems to forget that trickle down economics determine how our nation is doing. If large companies are doing good, then the people are doing good.

Think about this example...
A large manufactering company owned by a rich person has a lot of manufactering jobs in the United States. It is significantly cheaper to send these jobs oversees, so the company outsources the manufactering work. As a result of this, the companies profit skyrockets.

Now what does a rich person like more than money??? How about MORE MONEY! How do you earn more money in a capitalist society??? You invest in capital. So the rich person takes this large profit and invests it into creating a new business. New jobs are created. The wealth trickles down.

Everyone knows the United States has a low unemployement rate (< 5%), and the fact is that 100% employement is BAD for the economy. I think we are perfect. Unskilled labor such as manufactering jobs have, are in the process of, or eventually will go overseas.

What happens once these jobs go overseas?? Take China as an example. Their workers get jobs, earn money, and their economy booms. Now what? Now that booming economy has money to buy goods, say airplanes. Now what happens when China buys, say 150 Boeing 737's. I know exactly what happens. All the skilled workers back in the US at Boeing benefit. Billions of dollars are poured back into the US economy.

But this will only happen if OUR goods are CHEAPER and better than other countries goods. How does that happen? If they are manufactered as cheap as possible.

The fact is that unskilled labor is leaving this country, and skilled labor is here to stay. People cringe when they hear the word outsourcing, but it is not a bad thing. It makes US companies better, which helps them make money, which trickles down to the middle class.

I thought that aircraft mechanics are a pretty skilled bunch...

Second, all of these jobs leaving means that people are out of work. Exactly how to you maximize profits when your customer base is reduced? Cities like St. Louis are in crisis mode right now because companies like Ford are closing plants and outsourcing work overseas. Not only does it affect them, but it also affects other businesses like the one I work for. We're seeing a drastic decline in the number of frieght aircraft that are brining in parts for them. Other local small businesses like restaurants are closing becuase the plant's closing has resulted in a dramatic decline in lunchtime business. The local school districts are cutting programs and staff due to a loss of tax revenue, which puts the next generation even further behind.

Third, relating to the first point, cheaper goods don't matter if you're out of a job and have no income. Can you tell where I stand on outsourcing?

I have to hand it to you. Though I don't agree with everything you have stated, and not wanting to get into a finger pointing contest, you have come back with a very savy reply. Well done!

Well, if we could only outsource airline management, I'd have to say that would be good! :)

Thanks for the kind comment. Outsourcing is a very sensative subject, and I know it has obvious downsides. My biggest concern is that people see the word outsourcing, and all of a sudden cringe in fear and hate. It can be a good thing. Our capitalist economy is based on the success of business, and with their success comes the success of our citizens. Wealth does trickle down. As long as unemployement remains low, a little outsourcing is healthy for our economy.

Unfortunately, you don't have to be an aircraft mechanic to work on airplanes! An appropriately licensed mechanic must sign off that the work was done right, but anybody hired off the street (or out of the jungle) can actually do the grunt work...our airplanes are maintained by the same folks who pick our bananas.

Personally I feel that the work should be done in the US for safety and security reasons.

Sure were concerned for our saftey, just not enough to save $30 bucks on a round trip ticket.

Sorry I have to disagree with this trickle down theory that has not worked yet for 25 years. First look at the history lately and tell me were it is working. If businesses used the money like they should instead of lining the share holders pockets, aka the CEO and the board of directors, then maybe trickle down would work. Well some might wonder then what rich people are doing with all this money, I think they are spending it on **** that does not matter, like 350,000 dollar cars made in Europe and on houses that were built years ago. If you think trickle down economics work then you pobably think the rich are taxed to much.

More like 75 years. "Trickle-down" theory was first articulated in the early days of the Great Depression. The memory of the common hardships faced by the bulk of Americans in those difficult years often obscures the fact that a tiny minority continued to become very, very rich...

I'm with you brother, well said.

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/lf/aat1.txt

How about taking a look at the unemployment rate for the last 65 years. It has averaged at around 5 percent and hasn't consistently rose in recent decades even as outsourcing has.

If you think the rich arn't taxed enough then you probably think communism actually works. :rolleyes:

They say it takes a small fortune to make a big one.

Well, chances are fairly high that I may be flying you to Hawaii. Since my butt is at the pointy end I'm not going to be on the jet if there is any question of mx issues.

Talking to our guys who go to Aeroman has convinced me that they are indeed a reputable outfit. I was an Airbus Mx Check Captain for a while and spent a lot of time in Winnipeg and YVR picking up aircraft. We have had the same results from Aeroman that we had from Air Canada. From what I have been told all the mechanics that work on the aircraft have degrees and are very knowledgable. And a team of cleaners go through every part of the jet and scrub it down, even to the landing gear - like a new jet!

We have had worse results from the outfit right here in Goodyear who were doing the ETOPS mods on some of our 757s. We had jets in the shop way past completion dates.

Rest assured that before a jet gets released to the line there has been a Mx check crew who have flown that aircraft and tested every system before it goes out. And we line pilots have our checks we do before we hit ETOPS airspace.

Agreed. Valujet 592 comes to mind when talking about outsourced mx. And that was done by a US firm.

cactusmike:

Thanks for the information. I take it you are an America West pilot. From some research I did today, it appears America West sends their Airbus planes to Aeroman but the 757's go to Timco in Macon, GA. Timco also has a facility in Goodyear, AZ. Timco also does work for United. I was NOT pleased to learn that the Timco facility in NC was raided about one year ago for hiring a few illegal aliens who also had lied about their FAA licenses. There was also a story about a United plane that had a panel blow off leaving the NC facility because it was not screwed down. Were you led to believe America West is only serviced by Aeroman? What do your colleagues think about Timco?

Pilotpip, who did work on Valujet 592?

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This is the article about the MRO network from the Airbus webpage....

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...23_05_MRO.html

http://www.airbus.com/en/myairbus/fe...17_05_MRO.html

Thanks for the Airbus link. I had not seen this one.

Now that I'm pretty sure the America West 757's are serviced by TIMCO in Macon, GA, I'd be interested in opinions or experiences about that facility.

One thing I've learned is that is appears only American Airlines still does 100% of major maintenance within American.

You're interest has raised a few questions. Do you fly often? Do you own an American Vehicle? How do you feel about the price of your ticket?

I'm just curious 'cause it seems strange to me that you are so concerned about where an airline sends a plane for a heavy check. I'm sure that you are aware that between heavy checks that there are litterally thousands of hands that "inspect" an aircraft. Not all of those hands "inspecting" the aricraft are employed by the company whos logo is painted on the side of the plane.

Airlines fly thousands folks safely to their destination every day. You can be assured that NO pilot is going to fly an airplane that they feel is unsafe. It really doesn't make a difference where mx work is done, cause if your plane crashed due to a mechanical failure, someone will still find a way to blame the accident on pilot error.

The DC-9 that crashed on flight 592 had just come out of a heavy mx inspection from a company called Sabretech in Southern Fl. Then a division of Sabreliner Corporation based in St. Louis. Among other things, they found that the chemical oxygen generators that were replaced had been put in the forward pit, and not properly capped or discharged. In the forward hold a main gear tire was also placed on top of them. Tires and other parts are common when going to an outstation. One of the uncapped generators was "ignited". Basically, these things mix a couple chemicals and the exothermic reaction creates oxygen for the cabin masks. They also get incredibly hot. These ignited and the fire was fed by the pure oxygen while getting hotter as the result of the tire and other stuff in the hold.

Sabretech was noted in the NTSB report a number of times. Most of the work was done by non-certified employees under the "supervision" of an A&P. The removed generators were not properly tagged, and shouldn't have gone on the plane because they were comat.

I did a lengthy report on this one for an aviation safety class back in college. I have the report, all 600+ pages, in a binder and have read it cover to cover a couple times. It's amazing how many times this could have been averted but sadly wasn't. The other amazing thing is how in almost every aviation accident this is the case.

JetBlue and America West, like other 121 carriers in the US have had great safety records in recent years. I wouldn't be worried about flying on them, or any other carrier here. However, be aware that you get what you pay for and if you want cheap tickets this is what you get.

Let me elaborate why I started this post. I am going to Hawaii for a business purposes and decided to take my family. My ticket was already purchased on America West so I had to pick up two more. This led me out of curiosity to check up on America West (who I haven't flown with in quite some time). The data on www.airsafe.com was very reassuring but a google search quickly led me to an education on the topic of outsourced major maintenance. I did not realize that apparently all major airlines no longer retain their own mechanics for major repair. American Airlines seems to be the exception and has quite a bit of info on the topic on their website. It is there I learned all about A,B,C checks etc. I then came across and article by Harold Meyerson who writes for the Washington Post. He has made assertions that outsourced maintenance may compromise safety for several reasons: lower hourly wages, non-FAA certified mechanics, sporadic FAA checks to these facilities, etc. Specifically, in the case of America West, I have read that major maintenance for the Airbus goes to Aeroman TACA and the 757's go to TIMCO. First of all, in the aftermath of 9/11 should aircraft be going outside of US soil for heavy maintenance where workers have access to every nook and cranny on a plane? I don't know... maybe places like Aeroman have rigorous background and security checks. One would hope that the airlines and the FAA have these things under control. According to Aviation Today and Aviation Now, Aeroman DOES seems to be a good facility. Indeed, they are owned by TACA who has been around since 1931 and TACA has a spotless record at www.airsafe.com. In regards to TIMCO, about a year ago, the North Carolina facility was raided by INS and several illegal aliens were arrested. In addition, several employees were found to have FAA mechanic licenses that they should not have had. They had lied about things on their applications. TIMCO claimed these people subcontracted and were in "metal-working" areas of the facility and were supervised by other employees. No FAA license and illegal residence? This brings up safety AND security questions in my mind. Although this happened in the TIMCO facility in NC, I guess I can't help but wonder if these things can happen at the Macon, GA facility where, as far as I understand, AWA planes are sent. Shouldn't TIMCO be doing a better job screening their employees?

I know airline travel is safe. Anyone can realize that by looking at the statistics. On the other hand, outsourced maintenance has only built up steam in the past few years as far as I understand. Maybe the favorable statistics to date were because of in-house repairs by airline employees. Let's hope things remain the same or better.

In answer to your other questions, I only fly maybe once or twice a year. I own a Japanese built car simply because I believe it is built much better than comparitively priced American cars. If I had to pay even $100 more for a ticket and know every mechanic that touched that plane had an FAA license, was directly employed by the airline, and legally resided in the USA, I would do it. Mind you, I am not prejudiced that foreign workers can not do an equivalent job, I am concerned about security, FAA and airline oversight, and whether they take a personal "ownership" for the job they do.

I'm sure my question on this board may have seemed "odd" to some. I'm sure most passengers just book the cheapest fare without any consideration of an airline's reputation - much less reading about outsourcing issues. I appreciate that everyone here has been most gracious and generous with their input, but rest assured that my true motivitation for these concerns in purely rooted in the love I have for my family.

Delta Outsources alot of maintenance to Air Canada in Vancouver. Delta sends their 757/767's to Air Canada for maintenance while AirCanada sends their 767's to sinnipore or something like that for maintenance. Seems like the stupidest system ever thought of.

I'm with you prelude. All one has to do is look at the America of today versus the America of the 60s and 70s. I grew up in an America full of middle class suburbs and proud workers who generally had security and a good life. They weren't going to get rich, but who really cared as long as you enjoyed your life. Then CEOs only made 4 times the average employee's wages.

Fast forward to today and CEOs are making hundreds of times the average workers wages and no middle class worker, and especially no tradesman has much security working for a corporation. It's sad to see how greed and avarice have destroyed the American dream. Pilots, mechanics, flight attendants, gate agents ,etc are paying the price for this and have suffered a steadily declining lifestyle where they work harder and harder for less and less.

I far prefer Norman Rockwell's America to that of Carl Icahn, Frank Lorenzo, Stephen Wolf, etc.


Typhoonpilot

Any fool who thinks outsourcing is good and then tries to back up their argument with economic reasons needs to go to school and learn economics from someone other than a liberal college professor.

I have two concepts that you pro-outsourcing types need to learn about. The first would be "Trade Deficit". Learn what that concept is and see if you can still argue the benefit of having China make our goods for us.

The second is Keynesian Economics. It's a whole lot harder to keep that circle flowing when there's a big whole in the side sucking all the money out to a foreign country.

Deadstick,

Liberals tend to fight against outsourcing. It's the republicans that love things like NAFTA. Get your sides straight please.

I hear ya on that one Deadstick. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area which so many people love to disparage as the ******/liberal/weirdo capital of the world. Truth is, we also have the brightest, most educated population in the U.S., if not the world. Yes, we tend to vote Demo, but so what? The truth of the matter is, neither the Republicans or the Democrats are the same parties that our fathers believed in, or brainwashed us to believe in. The pendulum swings back and forth, doesn't it?

People who assume the thoughts and beliefs about people who vote different from them are foolish in their assumptions. I can't tell you how many times I've heard Silicon Valley employees here, who were raised Republican, rant about how outsourcing is hurting the U.S., and believe it or not, many of them are from other countries, like India! I also can't tell you how many times, I've heard many of my homosexual co-workers complain about illegal aliens getting a free ride in the U.S.

Yes, we in California pay more taxes than a lot of the U.S., but we also absorb the most immigrants, the ones who pick all the fruit and vegetables that the rest of the U.S. consumes at affordable prices.The taxes to pay for their health care, education, crime, and other issues, comes out of my California state taxes, my paycheck. I'm quite frankly tired of people in other states bashing California, when this state and it's economical strength subsidizes the rest of the US. I'm not from here, I'm from conservative Cincinnati, Ohio, but I still love it here. It's far from perfect, but please tell me where is "perfect?"...let the flaming begin...I know it's forthcoming with this group.

I agree completely. "Freedom From Want" and "Freedom From Fear"...

Ultimately, what it all comes down to is that they all aren't in it for their constituients, they're in it for their special intrest kickbacks. They'll support whatever, or whoever pays them the most money. In general, the Democratic party has been supported by organized labor and has opposed trade treaties like NAFTA.

And to top it off, they go on their respective left or right bent media outlets and scream about how the other side is screwing our nation. Shut up, and do the job we elected you for. In my humble and worthless opinion, both sides suck.

Oh, and while I'm on my political soapbox I'll add a little more. If you want to come here, welcome. Just play by the rules and come by the right channels. After all, unless you're a native american, you're from a family of immigrants too.

I remember listening my American Government prof tell us how interesting it was that people will paint a rosey picture of the way things were back in the 'good ol' days.' The point he made was that things wern't that much greater back then, just different. I obviously can't speak for everywhere, but middle class America is still alive and well throughout much of the nation.

Freedom from want and fear??? I was just a twinkle in my parents eye when the Cold War was going on, but my understanding was there were some pretty tense moments during those years. Our desires as humans are, and probably always will be insatiable. As much as I would like, I find it difficult to believe people have ever been free from fear and wants.

Fortunately for me I am in school and have learned/learning my economics from someone other than a ultra liberal prof. Trade Deficit - The trade balance (difference between exports and imports) of goods and services, usually in dollars, between the US and countries other than the US.

A trade deficit means that a country is consuming more than it is producing. Consuming more than you produce is pleasant thing. It also means that capital is flowing into a country, which can be used for investment. Why don't you go read (or re-read) the short example ryane gave. A long term trade deficit is not a good thing, but in the short term is a good thing (all in moderation). I believe the trade deficit will eventually work itself out.

I agree, but you fail to mention the immigration issue. Workers come here and send a large chunk of the money back to their home countries economy, sucking it out of ours. China at least invests a considerable sum back in our economy and continues to buy our debt (which is an entirely different issue).

You're certainly right that people have never and will never be completely free of either... All of economics and business are geared towards the allocation of limited resources in a world of unlimited demands. I was making reference, however, to two of the paintings in Rockwell's "Four Freedoms" series, which were derived from FDR's speeches and were used as posters in the Second World War. Neither was a depiction of actual conditions (especially at that time), but rather represented an ideal of free and democratic society towards which many Americans and others contributed their blood and toil, both in WWII and the later hardships of the Cold War. Sadly, these goals seem all too frequently lost in the highest levels of contemporary business culture, as the various threads here on the sad state of the airlines seem to indicate...

I only wish the Airlines had more customers like yourself. I'm glad you're taking the time to educate yourself about the complexities of the airline industry. Please pass your information on to your co- workers and friends.

The immigration issue wasn't directly relevant to the direction the thread was taking. I do take issue with immigrants sending our nation's money back home. The fact that Mexico's second largest source of income after oil is Western Union really chaps my backside. China buying our debt is not a good thing, that just gives them good position when it comes time to foreclose. America should be in debt to its people, not foreign nations. That way, should the nation become insolvent, it will be returned to us and not over to China.

It's a pleasant thing for countries like China. Our GDP stands to get worse as our country fails to produce. It also hurts when we no longer have the incentive to improve technology. Technological revolutions are what have driven our GDP up as high as it is. Families are wealthier because we have improved technology. We have grown from being poor farmers because of investment in technology. If we outsource all manufacturing, then why would it be necessary to invest in R&D as long as their is an endless supply of cheap labor.

If the breadmaker can produce 10 loaves of bread a day and sells them for $1 each, he would have $10 a day for his effort. If he invests in technology and produces 100 loaves a day as a result, then he will surely enjoy a better standard of living. However, if children in Bangladesh are making bread for $0.10 a loaf, the breadmaker will descend into poverty. This same principle happened to those who worked in the auto industry. Try selling your argument to them. You are replaceable as well. Let's see if you remain convinced after someone with an H1B Visa replaces you.

The whole argument for outsourcing is based on the fact that if US companies are doing well, then wealth will trickle down, and the middle class will see the benefits. The whole idea of outsourcing is to cut manufactering costs so you can use that extra money to invest in research and development.

Lets say Boeing can sell a 737 for $50 million. It costs $5 million to manufacter inside the US, and $2 million to manufacter outside the US. Now Boeing can take that extra 3 million dollars and do one of two things.

1. Lower the price of the 737 to $3 million dollars below that of Airbus.
Cheaper airplanes = more customers = more revenue for Boeing, an American company.
2. Spend that extra $3 million on research and development. That would provide more jobs at Boeing, and better technology leading to more efficient Boeing aircraft.
More efficient airplanes = more customers = more money for Boeing, an american company.

Now when countries like China want to buy medium size aircraft, they will buy from Boeing (as opposed to Airbus, a foreign company) because Boeing's aircraft cost less, and have more technology. Billions are poured back into the US economy.
ALL BECAUSE IT WAS MANUFACTERED FOR LESS!
Thank you outsourcing!!!

Jet Blue just signed a 10 year $200 million maintenence contract today to send their airbuses to montreal's aircanada maintence base.

That's all fine if you are a stockowner, but not if you are part of the working class of America. Putting Americans out of a job because it benefits your bottom line will eventually erode your client base. Unemployed people don't fly. They stay at home worrying about their mortgage. Sure, the rich people will have more money to spend on goods, but those goods were outsourced, so the working man gains nothing from it. When people stop flying, those orders are going to slow down, Boeing will have fewer orders, stockholders sell, and the Keynesian circle starts to stall out (no pun intended).

Possibly, until they start to manufacture their own medium size aircraft. Let's also not forget that as a very nationalistic people, they would buy Chinese goods even if they cost more than American. Turning backs on a nation's own workforce is an American defect, not a common practice everywhere. China's own growth in GDP is also beginning to cause them problems, so it is likely that the trade deficit will never balance out. Seems that now that China is getting a taste of the good life with their enhanced GDP, they run the risk of losing their own export base. Their own investment in their manufactoring sectors is starting to increase their operating expenses. As a result, some US companies are moving operations out of China to another place that hasn't invested in R&D but has a good source of cheap labor. American companies just keep moving on to the next country to exploit. Soon, manufacturing towns in China will look like Detroit. I doubt that will ever cure the trade deficit.

I doubt you have ever been replaced in your career by outsourcing or an immigrant with an H1B Visa. I am amazed that you think an economy could continue to function without an employed middle-class. Forcing an entire class of people into unemployment by closing factories will stop the circle. I am curious to know how much you understand about Keynesian economics. The whole concept is what has kept this country from having another depression.