CAL new hire pay
 

when and if Cal begins hiring, what are they pay expectations of a first year guy? usually its about the per hour * 1000, so i'm guessing around $31,000? hypothetically, just seeing how much the wife and i will need to save now to swing the cut in pay if i got hired. i live in the cleveland area and am tired of commuting, just the possabilty of getting cle based is enough hope for me. thanks.

Start saving now...it really sucks and was a pretty big adjustment for us. I think as of sept. before my furlough, my ytd pay was less than 20k, and I flew my tail off in the summer. Good luck and start saving now...I wish I had saved more.

Don't forget about the no health care first 6 months either.

Everybody cries about SWA requiring a type.

CAL (and everybody else) does the same thing, just a different approach to it.

That is a pretty expensive type.

health care is not a factor for me due to the wife's job, although it is b.s. that there is a 6 month wait to get it through Cal.

LOL...if you mean the fact that CAL has a CLE base gives you the "possibility of one day sometime in the future that you might hold a slot that may open up" then by all means, sure.

Cobra bennies can be expensive. I would say the first 6 months would be the hardest. I think with a family of 4 I was paying 820 a month for Cobra bennies. We did our best to limit the cost. Unfortunately our son had a surgical need that would not have been covered if we went to an online deal like E-surance, (previously existing condition) so we had to buck up and pay the cobra.

Good luck, I'm a furloughed guy and I'd love to see some hiring!

The pay sucked and I can't emphasize that enough. You'll work 18 days a month, commuting to EWR to sit reserve on the 737 (not very commutable so it'll add a few days per month away from home). After taxes I cleared a little less than $2000 per month. Don't forget to add in your crash pad and commuting expenses.

CLE seemed to be a very small, very senior base, so I'd plan on it taking a while to get there.

Of course its all relative to your timing.

We had a bid occur while our class was in new hire training and a few pilots who wanted CLE got it and went right after training.

Those pilots who bid EWR never sat a day of reserve out of training, IAH pilots sat either 3 or 4 months before holding a line.

The pay sucks no matter how you cut it.

It is obvious, the pay is not great but there is more hope for higher pay whenever the new contract gets completed. So for you, it should only be better than now and if you can live with it now, then you are already ahead kinda. I did hear a rumour...great as it is...that we are going to net 18 planes by the Aug 09 system bid and that it will require a recall of all on the street and some hiring. 12-737, 4-757 and 2-777. Again...pure conjecture but from a very reliable source who has been accurate the last several years to me in regards to CAL. We can just hope for the best!

You have to pay for a type at CAL?

(honest question)

He was implying that the poor first year wages are a result of the cost of the type rating being somehow incorporated into them.

I prefer to think of $30/hr as the result of the ongoing issue of poor bargaining and senior folks selling short the junior newbies.

So no, there is no price paid for a type at CAL, but many of our peers here have had CAL pay for their 737 type and race over to Southwest when they've been hiring. No opinion on this - just a fact.

No...I think he was referring to the money that you will be out of at both airlines. SWA has better first year pay but you have to pay for a type. You DONT have to pay for a type at CAL but between low pay and having to cover healthcare for 6 mos you're still out of the money. I think you probably lose a lot more at CAL vs SWA....

You can hope for better 1st year pay on the new contract. I just hope they dont sell out the junior guys for fatter raises at the top of the longevity scale. Seems that's how it's been in the past.

totally agree except that sometimes you don't even get the interview without the type and then they still say no. No job and still out the money.

While I agree wholeheartedly that we're underpaying first year FO's and need to give them medical insurance and a raise from day one, I also believe those who come to CAL, go through training at OUR expense, and then bail the day they've finished training, need to reimburse our company for the costs associated with that training. (Fraudulent employment?) No one has a problem with spending $8-9000 getting a type for SWA for a POSSIBLE interview, but seem to forget if you add the cost of that on to CAL first year pay, you're looking at $34,000 or so. But as Stratton said, at least at CAL you have a JOB before you get the type.....................:eek:

Airways is / was worse than that.

$25/hr on the 320 and 737.

thanks for the input and hopefully you CAL guys can get some upside with the new contract.

Thats called the cost of doing business. Happens in many fields outside of the airlines as well.

This argument cracks me up. I know, it's a stretch to think that if people were paid better and had better working conditions they might ACTUALLY stick around.

I know it does, and it says a LOT about the folks who do it. They screw someone else out of a slot, and then walk away from it. So who does it end up hurting? CAL's bottom line, which affects my pay in the long run....so in essence they are screwing all the other pilots too. If their was a consequence for their action, I think they'd think twice about it. Maybe CAL keeps the entry pay and benefits low because of pilots who do this. Why invest a lot of money in someone who isn't really serious about staying? ALL the newhires KNOW what the pay and benefits are when they start training. If they don't like them, then for God's sake, don't accept the job. :eek: But I have to believe those who leave knew darn good and well BEFOREHAND that they were going to leave, since they have to let the airline they are going to know they are coming to work. This type of deception doesn't say much for the pilots who do it, does it? :rolleyes:

I've given telephone recommendations to SWA for several of my F/O's since last fall's furloughs. CAL lost over 10% of new-hires (2005-2008) even before furloughs last year. F/O pay is terrible, the contract is far below status quo, and the pilot group suffers from a deep inferiority complex because Lorenzo lingers in our Chief Pilot Offices. Unfortunately, there's really no place to leave CAL for right now. If I had less than 500 beneath me at CAL, I'd leave for Delta in a minute. I've got high hopes for a better contract, but truth be known, no CAL pilot hired before 2005 has ever had a contract on par with other major airlines, and thus the bar is set too low. CAL is a great company, but if you are looking to enjoy the respect, unity and lifestyle that is in line with other majors, this ain't the place for you.

[QUOTE=A320fumes;541487]......... CAL lost over 10% of new-hires (2005-2008) even before furloughs last year.............[/QUOTE

I have a hard time believing that statistic. Do you really think over 100 pilots left CAL? I don't. If that WAS the case, you could bet that NO pilot with a B737 type would get a job interview with CAL, and NO pilot that had had an interview with SWA would be hired. Maybe that's what CAL needs to do now...........you interview with SWA, then you don't get an interview with CAL. I guess CAL would get blamed for people spending $8000+ for a type and not getting a job.............:rolleyes: Maybe that would save us some money that we could use for MORE leverage in our negotiations. Just a thought...........

Yep, it says they are not willing to put up with the substandard pay/benefits.

Thats been going on for YEARS. Don't expect it to change, especially where you're at. It ALSO frees up a slot when they leave.

What effects your pay in the long run is what you voted on. In a roundabout way, the reason these guys leave and affect your pay is ALSO because of what YOU voted on.

Again, the pay and benefits are low because thats what YOU voted on. Protect your pay, who cares about the junior people, right?

True

Again, cost of doing business. Happens all the time in other industries.

Doesn't say much about the way they treat a new hire either, does it :rolleyes: ?

And before you make some ASSumption, I haven't applied to CAL. Don't have an interest. And I know I'm not the only one.

So why do they apply for a job when they KNOW what the pay and benefits are? Seems they aren't doing ANYONE a favor, are they?

A slot is only freed up when a new bid comes out with openings, NOT when someone leaves training. Contrary to what you may think, it's a lot more complex than just bringing in a replacement.

The pay and benefits are what our union negotiated for us, and then voted on by the WHOLE pilot group. Sure, we can demand $500 an hour, but seriously, do think we'll get it? Once again this a much more complex issue than "demand and you shall receive". Again, do you think none of the newhires has any idea about the pay and benefits when they get hired?????

You keep saying "that's the cost of doing business", but does that make it right? All it does is makes it harder for the next guys to get on.......so who's it hurting? (Also, at CAL if a newhire that you recommend leaves during or after training, your recommedations will no longer will be accepted, so in essence it hurts your credibility as a sponsor too.:eek:)

I'm glad you haven't applied to CAL. There's thousands of pilots who DO want to come here. Please let them have a shot at one of our slots. One thing I can't stand is hearing a newhire complain about flying a new plane on longhaul routes, having never sat a day of reserve in his life, and how rough his life is having paid his "dues" for a whopping three years....all before he's 26 years old.:rolleyes:

Career, progression, it's been going on for years. You do know that, right?

Yep, I know that. But when airlines are hiring, they factor in a lot of things. Staffing needs, as well as attrition. Contrary to what you might think.

Thats usually the most simple argument. But you still had to vote, right?

How's it going to make it harder. The airline still has to hire to staff.

Thats between the "sponsor" and the guy that left.

No problem

Then maybe you should bid off the equipment if it bothers you so much. Get into something that has a different age demographic.

Oh come on.....you don't "career progress" in two months of training...........:rolleyes:

Once again, they don't just fill a slot as soon as someone leaves. It's a lot more complex than that.

More often than not, the sponsor is "blindsided" when their buddy is hired and leaves. I've heard a few say they'll never sponsor someone again since it was embarrassing for them to say the least.

I'm happy in my equipment. ALL equipment has whiners who think they deserve to be B777 captains at 24 years old. Age demographic? How so? Do you work for the airlines? Our equipment, whether the B737 or B777, has pilots of ALL age groups, so your statement doesn't hold much weight.

ewrbasedpilot,

Why do you seem to get so worked up about people leaving CAL? It wasn't the place for them and they found a better place that makes them happier. I know some people who left to go to a better place. (for them) Had they known they would end up there they never would have gone to CAL and endured the pay cut along with the other things that 1st year brings. Of course they couldn't see into the future and took the best option that was available at the time. (which was CAL)

Of those 10% that left I bet that those who replaced them will be happier than the 10% who left had they stayed. It's a win win for both.

Eric

the video game industry is responsible along with the KY company.

k, a little more back on topic.

For those who were furloughed....do you accrue longevity on furlough. Meaning if you were furloughed a day after getting done with IOE and were furloughed for 12 months, would you come back to 2nd year pay?

Sure you do. Get hired at CAL, no 737 type rating. 2 months later, 73 type in hand. If things go right, a job as SW shortly thereafter. If not, a job that will pay the bills (when they come off first year pay) till things look up.

Already dealt with this, you missed it.

Like I said, that between the sponsor and the guy he recommended.

Actually, all equipment has whiners on it that range from 24 to 60 plus. Do you have a point here?

No, gee, you caught me, busted :rolleyes:

Neither does yours where you think that somehow age equates to the amount of whining that goes on.

Hi Eric,
I don't get worked up, just fed up with those that don't realize how much they're hurting others due to their "greed" and thinking they are outsmarting the system..........which they aren't. I find the 10% number rather high. I highly doubt we had that many leave.........more like 3 or 4% from what I've heard. Some tend to embellish numbers to make them look better in their posts. I do agree with your last statement though. I think one thing a lot of people miss though is that the airline community is a REALLY small and burning a bridge may come back to haunt them.

Well, I guess that settles that.........another poster who knows more about the industry than someone who's been in it for 19 years.............:eek:

You guys done?:confused::rolleyes::D

167 left
 

I thought it was high when I first heard it too. A friend of mine, who was a former Chief Pilot for Expressjet, who also quit, showed me the numbers. It was a little over 10%, about 167. If you are truly interested you can add all of the new-hire classes from the union board and search staffing on ccs. I did it on reserve at the hotel one night. You seem to have a lot of CAL pride and I commend you for that. It also scares me because you also have to vote on the next contract. I'm probably a little more radical against the company than most, so maybe our votes will complement each other's. I think CAL treats it's pilots horribly. If there were any place else to go, I would. Good luck to all that got the type and left.

I DO happen to have a lot of pride in CAL, but I don't buy into management as much as some would tend to think......so we won't be canceling each others vote out and you can relax.....;). I just don't think badmouthing management and the company is really that useful. I asked some of the guys in the training dept when I was down for my PC last year and they said the 10% figure was way high (more like 3-4%). That is where I got my information. I do recall hearing about the XJET CP that got hired and left. He sure left a bad taste when he pulled that and hurt the cause of trying to get more XJET pilots over to mainline. I'd find it hard to believe we had that many pilots bailing to go to other airlines, but maybe it is true. I know a few who left UAL, and AMR for CAL. I know a several FA's who left SWA, UAL and NWA, for CAL too. But hey, if they think the grass is greener they're free to leave...........just make sure the door doesn't hit them on the way out.... ;) You know a lot of guys may WANT to leave, but when it comes down to it, CAL isn't such a bad place to work. Listen to a few other pilot groups talk and you'll see it's the same everywhere else too.

Really??? Were you fed up while your captains picked up right seat time for 150% pay last summer? :rolleyes:

Lots of ex-CAL here at SW. I'm kind of curious as to what the real number is.

ewrbased:

As a former Major airline pilot and active pilot in the Air Guard, I speak with our contemporaries frequently. I've also served as the Chief of Scheduling for my unit, as a result of this I'm familiar with several airline contracts. My opinion is skewed to a degree because I was one of those guys that worked at a major, not CAL, prior to 9/11. I know that those contracts no longer exist, but I have nothing else to compare this POS that the CAL pilot group voted for, on the first vote no less. One of my problems with our pilot group is that guys tend to have the "CAL is not such a bad place to work" paradigm. I can remember the pride I felt knowing that my airline had the absolute best contract and was a great place to work. Operationally, I think CAL does the absolute best job of any major in moving people around the world. Our employees are dedicated and senior management takes pride in running a great airline. Two factors make pilot employment here "not so bad", when it should be great. 1) The Lorenzo tainted management that exist between our senior vp of flight ops and our chief pilot offices. 2) The scab and scab mentality that exist in some of the pre-Bethune pilots that will do anything to help the company and screw their fellow pilot and employee. If it weren't for those two factors, we all would know the difference between a place being "not so bad" and being a great place to work. I'm glad to hear that we will be voting along the same lines for the next contract. I'll settle for nothing less than the best contract in the industry. If we get that, I'll share your befuddlement if 10% quit. It should be obvious that pilots would leave a job that's "not so bad" for another that's not so bad with a better contract and history of pilots who have achieved industry leading contracts. The "not so bad" bar needs to be raised.

Maybe if CAL treated employees better then they wouldn't run to SWA after getting typed.

Airlines need to entice people with a good quality of life, and good benefits, NOT a training contract.

So in order to keep people from bailing and costing YOU money as you put it, why don't you fight for a better contract for junior and senior pilots.