Real Unofficial Poll: Staple Compass if:
 

Ignore the fubar on the previous poll and this is to go along with the unofficial Delta pilots to Compass flowdown poll.

Does the DAL MEC forum support polls like this? I'm thinking other airline's answers could skew your results.

To the no 76 seaters at mainline crowd:

Northwest DC-9-10
Up to 90 Pax
90,700 lb MTOW
1265nm range
104ft Length
89ft Wingspan
10ft, 3in wide cabin
6ft, 9in tall cabin

Compass E-175
Up to 88 Pax
89,000 lb MTOW
2100nm range
104ft Length
85ft Wingspan
9ft wide cabin
6ft, 7in tall cabin

Why do you show facts? People just ignore them.

Jim,
The comparison of the 175 and the DC-9 is awesome. What are the pay scale differences. Let's put it into perspective of how messed up it really is. Throw in there the CRJ 900 too.

People need to stop using the term RJ. There is nothing regional about any of them.

Except, of course, the perception (built in Canada/Brazil vs. USA/Europe) of the public and *some* senior mainline pilots. And the pay.

What a great opportunity to reverse the trend and bring the E-170 to a mainline carrier.

Get them on the list (even if it requires a staple) but make sure they get the current DC-9/E190/CRJ900 payscale at Mainline.

I fly a real regional jet. The CRJ 200. I don't want to fly it forever. I want a place to go someday. So those of you at mainline, vote these things in so I don't get stuck at the regionals for life.

You got it buddy! You understand. We're coming and it's coming in force. The time is now to take action. Although I don't believe in a staple, it may be necessary (I say this with hesitation). I think the jets should come to mainline at the mainline rates established in the contract. I would prefer to give preferential hiring, but keep the same DAL standards intact. Everyone has to interview. If you pass the test, you keep the job and start as a first year FO. Simple as that. If not, you're out. Do not accept lowering the bar. Keep the standards high.

x2

Please stop giving up scope. I don't want to fly a plane with "express" or "connection" on the side for the rest of my career.

In the mean time, you guys fight for better pay/work rules and I'll do the same. Hopefully we all focus on making it better for the entire group.

What about that airplane makes it regional compared to the dc9-10 that was brought up earlier?

So some of these pilots are qualified to fly under the delta banner but not qualified to be actual delta pilots. One day you can fly the airplane and the next day you're not. Maybe you guys should be doing all of the interviews just so that your affiliates aren't muddied with lower than standard delta pilots.

What is it about delta pilots that think this way? Is there really something special about being a delta pilot and the interview process? I just don't understand this thinking that if you can't pass a delta interview you are somehow a lesser pilot with a lower standard.

You obviously don't get it and probably never will. Just because a guy has a type rating, do you think that he should be hired by CPZ...just because he's qualified and flying the plane already? Same thing about TAKING IT BACK. Just because a guy flies for CPZ, doesn't mean he is the guy DAL is looking for. There may be a more qualified candidate looking for a job that does posess the qualities they're looking for. We're taking the planes and routes back, not merging with them.

Majors have stringent hiring standards, some much more so than others. They look at the experience and quality of the PERSON they're hiring. They know you can fly a plane or else you wouldn't be there. The interview process is much more about the individual and whether or not you fit the mold the company is looking for.

You may have gotten your current job because you were willing to do it for nothing. That's what your company was looking for.

Ummm, it has 50 seats and is usually weight restricted when I'm looking for a ride to work! ;)

Do all the Northwest pilots need to interview too? They may not be up to your delta standards either (ex navy).

Just because you decided to go to delta doesn't mean you are a superior pilot to any one else....even compass. Compass hiring was done to NWA standards because there was a plan for Compass pilots to eventually move into NWA mainline aircraft.

No, read the entire post again. I said we're taking the planes and the routes, not merging with them. We merged with NWA and NWA is a major carrier.

Having said that, if the CPZ guys were in fact interviewed by NWA and met the NWA standards, then I think that changes things. Any FNWA or CPZ guys want to clear this up?

Even so, they should come aboard as a first year FO. No fences or clauses. That's how they would've flowed up to NWA.

Yes, CPZ pilots' initial interviews were their NWA interview.


Personally, I don't care if they start as first year FOs or keep their longevity in a staple.... get them on board. We've gotta get this ball rolling and now!

Have you written your REPs today? I agree, let's get it rolling.

Not the whole picture.

NWA ALPA set the minimums as part of the BK contract that allowed CPZ formation. Not the same as NWA hiring standards. The thought at the time was by the time they flowed up they would have normal competitive window experience.

Most of the initial cadre of street *Captains* were very highly experienced airline vets that were victims of wrong airline at the wrong time, or seasoned RJ Captains, and would have met the standards for any airline in the world.

OTOH, the minimums for F/O was 1500 TT hrs, 1000 ME, which while being far above what most feeders require, would not even get you an application at NWA unless you were demographically challenged or ex-Mil. Not sure what the first batch of F/O's was like, but later on they were having trouble getting applicant's with even 1500 hrs and got caught cheating on that standard.

Hardly NWA or DAL *standards*.

There were 3 or 4 guys that didn't meet the minimums that they cheated on and the HR types were fired for that. Most of the pilots there are far above the minimum requirements...just like NWA. The captains at compass would all be competitive at NWA/Delta....I was one of many that got a call from NWA and then told I wasn't eligible because I was at CP. Guys were turned down by Compass and eventually got picked up by NWA. Point to my rambling is mins of 1500TT and 1000ME were just that, mins. Very few were any where near those numbers.....ATA, Champion, Skybus, etc. provided a good number of the FO's.

NWA standards? Delta standards? I talked to a guy who interviewed at Republicin 86', now a NW pilot, and said the interview was NOT what we go through today. I have also talked to a DL guy who said the same about big D i the 70's, and a far cry from the interviews in the 60's when people upgraded in 3-4 years and then remained Captain for 30 years or more.

why not staple comair?

There are no doubt a majority of Compass pilots that would be a tremendous addition to Delta Air Lines. There are also, no doubt some that would not be hired competitively at Delta. I thought my Air Force UPT training was very good, and I still flew with quite a few clueless wonders in my career that graduated from the same training, some got major jobs, some didn't. It's Delta's prerogative to hire who they want, not entertain anyone flying for a regional they contract with. This is a competitive business, and thats a good thing. If they have a four year degree, good flying training, an excellent performance record, meet physical standards, and pass all personality and sim tests, bring em on. If they don't, then reapply if and when they do. Airlines hire pilots, and they hire people, they get to choose what qualities in both instances they want to carry their banner.

Because it's Comair!


Compass, although having a bit relaxed hiring for some of their more junior FOs, would meld much easier into DAL mainline than any of the others.

You all are aware that, with the flow agreement in place, current CPZ pilots do not have to interview before accepting the flow-through (assuming it ever happens)...

So, isn't this discussion about whether we are worthy kind of a moot point?

right...........

It's good to all you guys support CPS pilots even if it's mainly a result of wanting the airplanes on the DAL certificate. That doesn't hurt my feelings.

If this actually happened, lets talk about staffing and pay.

If there was no furlough as a result of this deal, I would assume all CPS FOs would stay E175 FOs. Then, it would take 12 months (estimate) to train 160 DAL pilots to be E175 Captains. As a DAL pilot transitions into the seat, the former CPS captain would go to another plane..whatever.

So that means for up to 8 months, a former CPS guy would be a DAL Captain...how about those apples. Anyway, that neat experience would be short lived..but it is a fact. So, what should a CPS/DAL Captain be paid?

As a CPS CA now, I would love to paid Year 1 DAL Captain pay for my time flying the E175 as CA. Then, whatever I fly as FO, I would be happy with year 1 DAL FO rate. Now, thats the way it should be. It's unfair to many of the DAL FOs, but hey, thats the way it should be. I'm a capitalist. But not only that, if you paid us CPS guys any less, it would set a bad precident for what guys are worth (from the Mad dog guy to the 747 driver).

BUT, to get this deal done...that is E175s on the DAL certificate and me a lowly CPS guy on the DAL list as a result of the staple job....

I would then want at minimum, my CPS CA pay rate while I'm flying the E175 and then when I go the FO seat, I'll take the DAL year 1 FO pay. But, I want my DAL longevity to start as soon as the staple job is complete. Ideally, I want longevity to start from my hire date at CPS, but I'm not going to be unrealistic because quite frankly, the flow agreement has me starting at year 1 anyway.

But, lets not forget that a CPS does not have to flow right now. So, a staple job (while the majority want it), is a negative for some guys at CPS. So, therefore, lets all not be so quick to accept the existing language that a CPS guy should go immediately to year 1 pay.

Anyhow, what say you?

There are no doubt Compass pilots that wouldn't be hired at Delta...and Delta pilots that wouldn't be hired at NWA...and NWA pilots that wouldn't be hired at Delta.....and NWA/Delta pilots who weren't hired by compass. Compas pilots were interviewed by NWA pilots...flew a NWA sim...and did the NWA medical.
There are, and always will be, some that get through whatever interview you have that shouldn't. Training department is there to sort those few out.

Hire them all and let the training department sort them out? WHAT.

Pay does not matter. Staple regardless.

Pay can be negotiated later. This is a one-time opportunity to expand mainline by adding a fleet of 36 airplanes.

If Compass pilots were to get furloughed after being stapled then so be it. It would be the same as being furloughed due to flowbacks anyway.

Former Northwest and Delta pilots would be much better off being bumped down to an E-175 on their own airline than flowing back because the work rules would be better, EVEN IF the Compass pay scale was the starting pay scale after a staple.

Management would have more options regarding fleet size changes with the E-175 at mainline. The flowthrough and flowback is very expensive. Backwards it means having mainline guys waiting up to a year or year and a half to get their flowback spot (what do they do during that time, stay at mainline? mainline would already be overstaffed). Going forwards, that is to say, flowing up, it is expensive because one training event is paid for by Delta for the Compass pilot at mainline new-hire class, and one new Compass pilot must be hired to fill that spot. If the E-175 fleet was at mainline, there would not be that double-training-event predicament in times of hiring.

Mainline pilots concerned about hiring standards at Compass should not be overly concerned (though it is a legitimate question).

Compass does perform the same medical that NWA did for new hires.

Compass had all interviewees do a sim evaluation with a former NWA pilot in the sim.

Each interview was comprised of one Compass HR rep and two former NWA pilots.

The first ~180 pilots hired easily would have been competitive for an interview at NWA or Delta. Nearly all of them were captains at other 121 carriers looking to move to MSP/DTW/MEM.

The second half of the list, numbers ~180 to 330 are a mix. Some were FOs at places like Air Wisconsin, ExpressJet, and others that furloughed.

About HALF of the bottom half of the list, that is to say, 25% of the total pilot group, were formerly pilots at ATA, Aloha, SkyWay, Midwest, DHL, and others that went out of business. Not uncommon to have a 20,000 hour ATA 757 captain type of pilot in the last few Compass classes.

The opportunity to staple this fleet to mainline will only come around once, and that time is now.

There are no disadvantages to mainline pilots that I can think of.

The following layovers would increase or return to mainline:
MSO seasonally
FCA
EWR (12+ hours means Manhattan in the JPWA right?)
PHL
BOS
PHX
BIL seasonally
JAX (seems to be a ton of commuters who could constantly have layovers at home again)
YYZ
I could go on and on.

Not at all what I said. There will always be some to make it through the interview...no matter what interview...that don't belong.

They get sorted out in training

seamonster seems to be of the angry comair sort.

I am a CPZ fo and I support a staple 100 percent. I would take a furlough to make this happen. These airplanes belong to mainline! No more using the term "regional". Pilots are Pilots, and airplanes are complex machines that require high skill to operate safely. Put all the petty differences and bickering aside. Let's do what we have to to make this happen.

Compass E175s are owned by Delta Airlines at this point. For the most part, Compass, being a wholly owned subsidiary is simply a division of Delta/NWA. Also.... a division in our union and company. By combining the pilot group, growing the fleet and saving money via certificate streamlining this becomes a win/win/win for all.

In addition to the aforementioned benefits, here are some more:
-increased job security for mainline pilots
-a trend in the right direction aka mainline growing instead of fee for departure economics
-ridding of the BK written Compass contract that is far inferior to the JPWA work rules
-ridding Compass overhead in Chantilly, VA
-improving flight safety by falling under the Delta umbrella
-possibilities for a simple addition of the E190/195 to the program should a DC-9 replacement be needed earlier than forecasted
-removal of expensive training fences
-FA crew resources streamlining

By converting this aircraft to an all coach 86 seat aircraft, this would open a long range modern aircraft to serve markets in between the 76 seat and DC-9/MD-88 markets, and increase competition with US Airways, JetBlue and all others who compete in the 90-110 seat market.

I think this is what Delta management is after, if this truly in the works. It all makes financial sense to me.

Sounds like a great idea! Let's bring it to the mainline!

Obviously The benefits have all been mention by various people. I am one of the first few classes at Compass. I did not have the option of going to NWA because they were not hiring and that was said by multiple resources. The people i knew said the way to NWA was thru Compass. To my surprise once I was already committed and finishing up training in Montreal... Guess what no more furlouged nwa pilots were wiling to come back to a sub-standard NWA contract so Mainline starts hiring. Guess what my friends from my previous regional (where i was a CRJ capt. for 4 years) who couldn't get a initial interview with Compass because they didn't meet the current qualified minimums that once the NWA application opened up went to NWA..

Hows that for apples. Hey can you help me get a interview at Compass. I say sure but it is all computerized once they weed themselves thru the more qualified apps i am sure they will call you then i will find out how to put a letter of Recommendation in for you... Guess what they never got called because they weren't as qualifed as the original 80 at compass. Now NWA opens up there application process and Wham they are now at NWA with the ability to flow down and displace me from my seat. Now that is IRONIC.

But the thing that gets my goat is that I have been paying ALPA dues from Day 1 at compass ( almost 2 years ) to the nwa lec/mec1 and no where did they mention what they are doing to represent me in this merger. Thanks for the taxation without representation NWA ALPA.

Very, very true! And so frustrating! :mad:

If this makes you feel any better, NWA hired folks to cover those that didn't return from furlough and also to preserve the summer 2008 flying. Had the 2008 October APA been awarded, all newhires would have been furloughed and some back on furlough from the round prior. There were hardly any military in our newhire classes and most of my peers were relatively very junior RJ or prop captains with approximately 300 to 1,000 hours PIC or so hours. Of course we had some that were also very experienced but lived in one of the bases. It seems NWA clearly targeted certain regionals, those that lived in or near a NWA base and relatively junior Captains elsewhere.

Maybe they felt we were so junior we had nothing to lose by giving NWA a shot for the summer. In training, we all felt like we were just being rammed through to get online before the summer kicked off; almost everyone in my newhire class repeated some portion of training as it was clearly cut to the bones. My last regional spent twice the time covering systems. I have also flown with check airmen who tried to get personal friends interviewed with no luck. I am very gratful that Delta came along, it's a class act company and brings much welcomed change.

At best that is what you can hope for. DAL simply will not take everyone from a regional. Now CPZ is different as they passes the NWA interview process.