When it comes down to it, there are more people than there are jobs in the United States. It is not just the airline industry having this problem. Our country has just about outsourced everything there is to outsource at the workers' expense while CEO's have pocketed millions. Our country is in trouble. We are now almost bankrupt and the solution is to raise taxes more. We are taxed more than almost any country in the world as is. Somewhere down the line something has to give, or our country will collapse. I am not sure capitalism works anymore. There is too much dishonesty and greed at all levels.

Of course that early retirement (monthly annuity) will be in great shape until the next BK if gas goes up to where it was a year ago. Analysts say possibly even 300/bl. And you know how DAL loves to honor and not try and terminate pilot pension plans. Remember, it was ONLY the pilots who had their plans terminated in DAL's BK. They offer an early out in a lump sum, then go for it. Buyer beware in a traditional defined benefit plan. Ask close to 2000 pilots that retired in 04/05 how that defined benny thing is working out for them.:mad: Oh and if that happens to be the case, don't ask YOUR union for any help at all. "Hey, you're retired, we don't have to represent you. Hit the street pal." Just my two cents. But wait, I don't get two cents a month from my former employee.

Jim VanSickle (Spelling?) Came to the ANC LEC meeting in Mar and said Mgmt has stated we would be overstaffed this fall, but even or short next summer and that break even on furlough is 18 months and that if they furloughed they would have to recall next spring for summer, so they are not going to furlough. This is summary, not exact quote...but DAL Mgmt can always change their minds. FWIW

If oil goes up to 300/bl, the US airline industry will shrink by half, permanently. I don't even worry about this scenario anymore, because even though I think the long term prognosis for airlines in the US is a shrinking trend, there's really not much point getting all tied up about it. It's totally out of the control of labor groups and airline management . . . a rational national energy policy is the prerogative of the US government. After watching for 40+ years, it's pretty clear that ain't gonna happen.

FWIW . . . I don't see any significant takers for an early out. For what the boys at the top are going to want, it will be much cheaper just to furlough and retrain. No judging here . . I'd probably feel the same way if I were the one at the top with the most to lose by an early out (great salary, seat, and schedule vs. a marginal "buyout").

I don't think capitalism was ever intended to be used the way it has been in recent years. It was supposed to be about free market competition and opportunity. Traditionally, companies that are run well are the winners. In recent years it seems the focus has been taken off of running a good business and put more on structuring things so that executives and Wall Street types can make a quick buck (actually, a lot of quick bucks!), often at the expense of employees and ultimately the consumer. This is just my opinion, but I think what we have been experiencing is a business fad. Twenty years from now, I'll bet college level business text books will talk about the failure of this period in American business history and the consensus will be, "what the heck were they thinking?!".

I don't think capitalism is dead. It's just a matter of how long it takes to get back to real capitalism instead of this bizarre distortion of it that we see today.

I just can't believe it has come down to this. The AGE 65 rule has predictably caused overstaffing situation after the merger. If the age 60 rule was still intact, I seriously doubt DAL would even think about furloughing pilots because hundreds of senior pilots at all major airlines would be retiring year after year and DAL would have to start hiring instead of making announcements that they are overstaffed.

I agree with you. I hope you are right about the business fad for our sake and our kids' sake.

In regards to your better "current" retirement system are you talking about company match? Because retiree health care is over twice as much as the former NWA plan, & those who may take the early out aren't really going to benefit from a higher match if they leave less then 1 year after the CBAID.

Truly not trying to flame ya, just curious. :)

I'm not sure what the difference is between the cos medical plans are. I do not use DAL's. I was just pointing out that overall the NWA side did not have the flush from the top that DAL had during the BK. The co is now trying to even out the two pilot sides before the SOC. It is good (and rightfully so) that this occurs prior to SOC and the NWA side can take advantage of their retirements. DAL already had their opportunity and that is why we have guys in their forties holding wide-body captain. I do not see many DAL guys taking this opportunity as they have no defined pension to fall back on we are now a younger pilot group.

The way it was explained to me from supposed "guys in the know" is that normally airline staffing looks like a triangle with more jr guys in the co AND more guys on narrowbodies at the bottom of the triangle. Our merged co staffing looks like an inverted triangle with the majority of guys both at the top of the payscale and flying WB's. Call it a product of DAL's intl push. Now in a economic downturn we are pulling back WB flying and replacing them with NB's. So we are overstaffed on the WB side and understaffed on the NB side. The last DAL (and probably NWA's if they had one) displacement bid in JAN tried to address the crew manning needs but we are still overmanned at the top. The training costs and time to train associated with turning our triangle around would not only be prohibitive, but by the time it was over the economy would most likely be turning around and now another entitlement would come out and guys would be put right back into training as the mando displacement guys bid back to their prior seats.

Also, MAYBE we could give our union some credit for the furlough protection. Mgmt may be holding to it........................for now. We will know it is coming when they start to negotiate for reduced lines and vol leave.

Think the flush was the result of the ability to take a lump sum, and the possibility of an inpending BK. The company is not trying to even out the sides but rather buy off the more costly employees...they don't care where it comes from, but I would imagine it will be targeted to the higher wage earners.

The people in the know, usually don't; they parrot talking points.

They could care less about the triangle, they have too many pilots at this point...some one has run the numbers, which is cheaper...buy outs or furlough...I would think if they do not get the buys outs, they will select another option...think the economy is still 2.5 3 years from a full turn.