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3XLoser 05-19-2009 06:03 AM


Originally Posted by Killer51883 (Post 612452)
... you end up just around 3000 hours or so. is this not expierence? ...


When you have 3000 hours, you think you're experienced. When you're well into five digits, and you fly with someone with 3000 hours, you realize insurance companies are taking a HUGE risk by insuring a PIC with that little experience.

Insurance companies may be the ones to force some change, not the FAA, ALPA, or congress. When the insurance companies realize there is a lot of experience out there, they may require it. There are some low time pilots out there who haven't had a chance to develop their skills with some real hard-core instrument flying, who feel they're entitled to airline flying. Not when my family is in the cabin!

bubi352 05-19-2009 06:03 AM

The problem starts way earlier: flight training.

1) We have too many schools like ATP that trains zero to hero in 90 days. Those schools do harm to this industry. How can you develop the proper skills, knowledge and decision making in this time frame? This is impossible.

2) Rarely have I seen or heard a checkride being properly conducted. Designated Examiners are suppose to represent the FAA to test applicants to the PTS. Looking at some Designated Examiner (only a few - am not trying to generalize) pass rates, I can't help but think it is just a position to make some good money putting aside the standard we are seeking in this industry.

I have seen how a checkride is conducted in UK. I was impressed. When an applicant is ready for a checkride, he needs to send his application with the appropriate fee to the CAA. At this point, the applicant will be designated an examiner for the checkride. CAA will give equal workload to examiners. Students cannot choose an examiner. This examiner will enter in contact with the applicant and establish a time and location for the checkride. The applicant does not pay directly the designated examiner. This is included in the fee paid to the CAA and the designated examiner will be paid once the checkride complete whether a pass or fail. This system removes the business entity and really help concentrate on the standards.

3) Aerobatic training. How can you have a CFI who has done one spin flight in his flight training teach this complex maneuver after??? This should be left to experienced pilots. Aerobatic training should be mandatory for commercial and ATP. Period. I have seen too many pilots crying like babies asking not to pull too much negative Gs or pleading me to go back to normal attitude doing an inverted check. This needs to change!

Rant over. Over.

loungelzrd 05-19-2009 06:31 AM

Remember, two over 60s can't fly together.


APPLICABILITY OF ICAO STANDARD- A pilot who has attained 60 years of age may serve as pilot-in-command in covered operations between the United States and another country only if there is another pilot in the flight deck crew who has not yet attained 60 years of age.



It only applies to international ops.

tomgoodman 05-19-2009 08:35 AM

Grass always greener?
 

Originally Posted by SkyHigh (Post 613294)
It seems to me that anyone who has the drive to become a Chuck Yeager would not be interested in burning up their days in the front of a modern airliner anyway.

The flight test profession has changed too. One senior YF-22 test pilot met an old squadron mate, a Delta captain, at a reunion and said: "You have the best job in the world." True story.

meatloaf 05-19-2009 09:04 AM


Originally Posted by SkyHigh (Post 613294)

It seems to me that anyone who has the drive to become a Chuck Yeager would not be interested in burning up their days in the front of a modern airliner anyway. It takes someone with a special set of traits to be able to be able to drone along for years of doing the same thing every day over and over without getting bored silly.

In the airlines there are no points given for working harder than the next guy. Natural talent is wasted in the seniority list system. The airlines create and reward the average. Pilots are only motivated to pass the next proficiency check. Their skills and abilities are narrowed down to exactly what they need to get by.

From my experience the airlines do not prefer to hire ex-crop dusters or African bush pilots. They want people who have a long and stable career of doing the same thing everyday. You don't have to be good in order to be a successful airline pilot just good enough.

SKyhigh

A lot of Chuck Y's buddies got out and became Pan Am or TWA pilots, and flew another 30 years after the military. They were pretty good too, just never had a movie made about them.

Today's no different. The good one's are still out there, but the bar's been lowered to ground level for some of the marginal operations. You get what you pay for.

But if pilot-less drone airliners are what you prefer to fly on, have at it. No way. Think I'll wait for the "B-Model" on that one.

Silver2Gold 05-19-2009 10:09 AM


Originally Posted by ERJ135 (Post 612775)
Actually while i agree for the most part. I have another side to this argument. When i got hired 3yrs ago at former carrier. I had 1300hrs 200 or so hours multi. I was an instructor. I will fully admit my instrument skills where lacking when I got hired. While i am a CFII and MEI. I ended up with a lot traffic pattern work. I actually was a anxious about flying in the clouds as i did not have a lot of actual time. I had few bad experiences with ice and t storms in the GA airplanes. I guess you could say i learned something from these experiences. However, i didn't feel comfortable flying around in actual conditions. After being hired by commutair, flying the B1900, no autopilot; flying through the rain, snow, ice, thunderstorms, fog. Landing on snow cover runways with mountains around in Rutland VT and Saranac Lake NY. That did more for confidence then anything. It really fine tuned my instrument, flying skills, and made me comfortable flying through anything. Now i want to go flying through the eye of a hurricane. So I think it depends what type of aircraft new guys jump into.... JMO

Nothing against you personally dude, but I think the point some of us would agree on is this: you should not have been flying around ticketed passengers with this lack of experience, and especially that lack of confidence flying in IMC. If the captain had crapped the bed, you would have been the man to bring it in. The people in back (possibly any of our families) deserve better than someone who is still not confident, and lacking experience flying in the wx.

Like I said, nothing is personal here. We have all been at the point where we did not feel comfortable flying in the weather. The difference is - many of us were not hauling around passengers at that point - and rightfully so.

Flying boxes, charter, military, and CFII type ops are all great places to gain that confidence and experience. Part 121 is not.

FANS cripple 05-19-2009 10:23 AM


Originally Posted by SkyHigh (Post 613294)
You don't have to be good in order to be a successful airline pilot just good enough.

Based on your extensive airline experience?

effsharp 05-19-2009 10:38 AM

I think Silver2Gold has a real valid point here. Especially when you consider that your wife or kids are on that plane. It is absolutely absurd for an unconfident pilot to drive these people around. I built my time flying checks.. and I learned a lot. And I don't blame a person for taking a job that is offered to him/her. The problem is not with the pilot but with the system. I know of no other profession that puts a person in instructor role as a first job. It makes no sense.

Silver2Gold 05-19-2009 10:51 AM


Originally Posted by effsharp (Post 613433)
I think Silver2Gold has a real valid point here. Especially when you consider that your wife or kids are on that plane. It is absolutely absurd for an unconfident pilot to drive these people around. I built my time flying checks.. and I learned a lot. And I don't blame a person for taking a job that is offered to him/her. The problem is not with the pilot but with the system. I know of no other profession that puts a person in instructor role as a first job. It makes no sense.

Good point - and I should have brought this up. In a like manner, I do not fault these young guys/girls for taking and flying those jobs. Rather, quite the opposite - good on em for stepping up to the plate. The FAA, however, is negligent in allowing it to happen in the first place.

USMCFLYR 05-19-2009 12:14 PM


Originally Posted by effsharp (Post 613433)
I think Silver2Gold has a real valid point here. Especially when you consider that your wife or kids are on that plane. It is absolutely absurd for an unconfident pilot to drive these people around. I built my time flying checks.. and I learned a lot. And I don't blame a person for taking a job that is offered to him/her. The problem is not with the pilot but with the system. I know of no other profession that puts a person in instructor role as a first job. It makes no sense.

I know that it is not the way of the industry - but this is one reason why I did not pursue my instructor ratings right away - and I questioned the SERGRAD program of naval aviation. I have known SEGRADs and FAIPs since and some of them are great pilots - but personally - I just couldn't instruct when I didn't feel that I knew much about flying myself. I needed to be seasoned before I felt I could instruct others.

USMCFLYR


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