During the cold war, the US military had lots of forward operating bases. Thus, crew rest and flight durations were generally not much of a concern. For those non-military the rules were pretty straight forward, you got 12 hours off before each flight and the flights generally were never longer than 12 hours and 16 hour duty day.

Later the military closed lots of forward bases and created the requirement for crews to operate from bases further away. Thus, flight durations started going up and duty days longer. Now, some crews see duty days in excess of 24 hours and occasionally flights as long as 42 hours.

The only way they are able to accomplish these missions/requirements is with the controlled use of prescription drugs.

The AF has lots of experience with Ambien and it works very well. However the real concern is, it worked so well it has allowed the commanders to demand and receive more productivity from their troops.

I fully support the FAA allowing the use for civilian flying (they currently allow the use up to 36 hours prior to a flight), however watch out for the slippery slope.

 

I understand that Ambien isn't perfect, as you clearly laid out. However, ANY drug has side effects. Just googling the side effect of Aspirin is enough to make one reconsider popping the wonder drug.

I'm an Air Force guy who went thru the medical testing of fatigue management drugs. However, I *never* took them because I never felt fatigued enough.

With that being said, I find this discussion interesting but at the same time, irrelevant. Do we really need to be taking drugs? Are the rules really that bad?

Are pilots really not getting enough sleep? Or are they failing to be responsible/professional and aren't allowing themselves to get proper rest?

 

You speak some wisdom here.

In the AF, as a U-2 pilot some years back, we used a predesessor to Ambian called Restoril (temazipam) to quickly adjust for a new operating location or to ensure we were rested prior to an all night 12 hour mission. Each pilot had to be screened by the flight surgeon thru a trial period prior to being authorized to use it in a mission environment. And, we weren't given an endless supply as I can envision happening without some guidlines.

Fatigue can be cummulative or acute. Ambien utilized on a sparing basis to either prevent/correct acute fatigue should be considered. Having said that, the real issues are the very rules that lead to the real problem which is cummulative fatigue and airlines that schedule to the limit of said rules as a standard practice! That is the problem!

Ambien could have appropriate uses in the industry but not as a fix to keep the current rules regarding flight time, duty time, and duty day that have been extensively proven to be inadequate as it relates to fatigue and safety.

To address and prevent acute fatigue due to WOCL issues yes. As a standard fix for unsate scheduling practices to "get thru" a fatiguing trip, NO.

Lee

 

Frankly, I can't believe that so many of you are willing to start drugging yourselves to put a band aid on this broken industry! Rather than demand real solutions.

This only insures that the shareholders and Management get more value out of your labor. Leaving you a few scraps at risk to yourself, your family, and what little fortunes you've accumulated.

I would like to know...the first aircraft that augers into the ground...when it is revealed that the crew was on some drug to keep them awake who will take on the catastrophic liability?

a) The drug company
b) The FAA
c) The Airline
d) The crew members and their families
e) The Pharmacy
f) All of the above

The only proper response I can think of for such a proposal; "HELL NO!"

Onfinal

 

I agree to a point but what's your proposal? ...That all flights be operated between the hours of 6am to 11pm EST? What about international crossing of many time zones and trying to adjust yourself. What about the cargo operators that fly the graveyard shift? I'm not trying to argue with but I just don't know the answers. I would say shorter flight and duty times across the board.

 

The day I'm told that my fatigue call is questionable because I refused to take a mind altering drug to rest is the day I quit flying and find a job with normal hours.

I don't think this a likely scenario. However, I wholeheartedly agree with your "slippery slope" warning. Personally, I was shocked that drug use was even mentioned as one solution to rest requirement issues.

 

lionflyer:

Don't have a proposal. Frankly, I don't feel obligated to solve airline managment's problems for them. I feel obligated to protect myself, and fellow pilots. What I am saying... it is wrong, morally wrong, to expect us to drug ourselves to stay awake unnaturally so that they can protect their bonuses, profits, and share values! I would hope everyone's stand is that "this option is off the table".


Onfinal

 

I haven't read this proposal, but if it's anything like the way the AF uses the drugs, the "go" pills are very rarely used. We treat them as "emergency use only" i.e...you're airborne in a single seat fighter, not near a base, and you can't stay awake. The "no-go" pills are used more, the idea being that if you use the ambien to get some decent sleep before the flight, you won't need the "go" pills in flight.

Personally, the ambien seems to work pretty good to me, although it loses it's effectiveness if you take it more than a few days in a row...at least it does for me. I very rarely used the go pills and never liked them. Their use was very controlled, and you didn't get them unless you met some very specific circumstances.

All that being said...I sure don't want to see airlines using drugs as a way to do the job with less guys.

 

So I'm guessing you've never had 4 day trips with EVERY overnight around 10 hours, EVERY duty day 12 hrs plus, with 5-6 hours of daily sit time?

I'm being responsible on the 9 hour "rest" period by trying to get 6-7 hours of sleep after three of the above mentioned days, to be followed by a 12 hour day with 5 legs and three aircraft swaps.

5 legs is nothing, I sat next to a guy commuting the other day that had a 9 leg day ahead of him.

 

He has possibly had weeks or a month of that schedule (or worse) on end.
I've never used either end of the sleep drugs and I wouldn't start now.
I'd agree that the work/rest rules would need to be rewritten to achieve and real reform - new work/rest rules using real science.

USMCFLYR