HELP! CRM needed
 

Hi all, didn't know where to post this, so...
Anyhow, looking for an event that happened a few years ago. I think it was Air New Zealand. They were shooting an approach into some island, and the F.O. (?) spoke up because it didn't look right. They went around, and were OK. I have to do a safety presentation for Amtrak ground school, and I am doing it on CRM (or C/L/R as UAL calls it), and this is going to be one instance where CRM worked.
THANK YOU for your input. Any other references where CRM WORKED would be great. I have PLENTY where it DID NOT.:(
ONLY six more weeks!!! (read sarcasm)

here's one about bad CRM or what not to do (if you're interested)

an Asian airline (maybe Thai Airbus-310??).... the Captain was an "ex-pat", from the West somewhere, the F/O a national....they were on final, ILS but visual conditions, I think the captain was at the controls, A/P and A/Ts enagaged... the F/O said something like,"it doesn't look right", he said it twice or maybe three times, the Captain said something like "it looks normal"... seconds before touchdown, the F/O (non-flying pilot) reached over and pressed the TO/GA switch, but it was too late, the airplane was touching down as he did that, they ran off the runway.... once everything came to a halt, the captain asked the F/O "why did you do that"...... happened late 80s, maybe early 90s??

I'd say United 232 is an excellent example of when CRM did work - they brought a third guy up to work the throttles and help control the airplane - people still died but the situation turned out pretty good considering how dire their circumstances were.

Korean Air A300-600R, 1994. Canadian CA and Korean F/O.

I'm sorry I couldn't resist..

exactly how much of their training does not take place on the ground?

You might want to look at United 811, Honolulu, 1989.

This is the incident you're looking for:

Air New Zeland, Flight 60 (NZ60)http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/apac/cnsmet_sg6/wp39.pdf

I've seen a video in recurrent ground school about it that included a recreation of that night. I don't remember if it was a Boeing video or not.

edit: I found the video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GelRBhJ4gmI

Yep, that was the one. If you use a 3-for-1, it always works.

Got it, thanks for the replies!!!
:)

Just have to do a safety presentation, so I decided to do it on CRM. Being that the only thing I know is aviation, I am going to tie it in with train operations.:o

Already had that one!!!;)

Not sure about Amtrak, but if he worked for CTA, I'd say a lot!

I'm sorry, being from Chicago, I couldn't resist.

The reason there are few examples of CRM when things go really bad, is CRM will usually prevent events getting to the tipping point of no recovery. Between CRM and note complying with hijackers these are the two biggest changes in prevent very bad things. (note: GPS is a close 3rd)

I went the train route as well when I got furloughed from American. It was fun, and there are a lot of similarities between the railroads and aviation. Have fun. I know that's a tough school.

Maybe you could use an example from a GPWS warning where it says, "TRAIN, TRAIN".

"DON"T THINK, DON"T THINK!" :D

That made my day! :D

Freight or pax? It IS tough. 12 weeks, and almost a quiz/test DAILY!!!
Why did you leave? Just curious.

There are many similarities! We both offer safe, reliable on-time transportation to the public. And fatigue is one HUGE issue at railroads. I spoke with a few train engineers, and after hearing their schedules, I couldn't believe it. If you think our job is tough, try doing continuous 8-hr train shifts, with short rest periods, around the clock.

Railroads also set the standard in transport; why do you think we're under the Railway Labor Act? They started first. Lots of similarities.

Good luck to you! If you know my old man's hobbies I'm sure he'll be extremely jealous of you!!!

HA! I thought about your dad when I got the offer!!! :D
I think I remember Captain B. Williams shared that passion with your Dad.?
Tell Grandpa Pees a lot "Hi" and Choo...Choo...!!!;)

CRM is tie to everything- I know a Ret. Capt from CAL who teaches CRM and does presentations in Hospitals, Schools, Police Depts etc... She says is a nice gig :D

Yeah, make sure you tie train operations with texting... :rolleyes:

That made me think of the German Coast Guard video... Maybe you can incorporate language barriers into your CRM class? :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cPszoim2Cw

Thanks for that laugh!!!
As far as texting, well you've heard of sterile cockpit too, right? Unfortunately, there are idiots who don't follow rules. Same as people who go around the crossings; lights blinking, gates down, etc..

you know I think I recall seeing a CRM video about the "fish throwers" in Pikes Place market in Seattle (if you're familiar with it - its quite a show!) just a non-aviation CRM video that could be a good resource if you found it. for what its worth...

I went with CSX (Freight) back in 2003. I did the Conductor school, and was looking to to "upgrade" to the Engineer seat in about a year. They asked me to go into the management side after a year as a Conductor which for my age would have been a pretty good move. Overall I liked the job, and I worked with some interesting people (10th grade dropouts to retired Doctors). It was very dangerous on the freight side. During my time there we had about five people killed and several hurt bad. Moving from conductor to engineer was going to be much safer. As I said, I liked it but in the end I was approached about a chief pilot job in corporate aviation, and decided to go back to flying. I would think that being an Engineer with Amtrak would be awesome! Good luck to you.

CRM Program Manager
 

Short Bus,
PM me if you need any more info. I'm the CRM program manager at FSI. Years ago the Texas transportantion Institute (down at A&M) did extensive CRM studies and proposal with BNSF, headquartered here in Fort Worth. They developed curriculum, the syllabus, powerpoints, etc.

Ultimately, training CRM in rail ops was considered "too expensive" so it never made much headway. I've got all the reports (and probably the powerpoints and scenarios they developed) around here somewhere. If nothing else, I could give you contact info and the website.

FSI provides CRM training to refinery operators (working a panel, talking on the radio, watching gauges...much like what a pilot does.) The training has been very well received. These seem to be the only guys spending the money on non-mandated training.

Translating it to medicine has had limited effect. Each doctor is essentially a "contractor" to a hospital so unless the hospital is paying for it, my experience is that the doc is not writing the check.

Remember the old adage, "what's the difference between a pilot and a doctor?"

A pilot thinks he's God, a doctor knows he's God.

Let me know if I can help.

S.F.