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HELP! CRM needed

Old 07-13-2009, 03:11 AM
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Default HELP! CRM needed

Hi all, didn't know where to post this, so...
Anyhow, looking for an event that happened a few years ago. I think it was Air New Zealand. They were shooting an approach into some island, and the F.O. (?) spoke up because it didn't look right. They went around, and were OK. I have to do a safety presentation for Amtrak ground school, and I am doing it on CRM (or C/L/R as UAL calls it), and this is going to be one instance where CRM worked.
THANK YOU for your input. Any other references where CRM WORKED would be great. I have PLENTY where it DID NOT.
ONLY six more weeks!!! (read sarcasm)
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Old 07-13-2009, 03:48 AM
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here's one about bad CRM or what not to do (if you're interested)

an Asian airline (maybe Thai Airbus-310??).... the Captain was an "ex-pat", from the West somewhere, the F/O a national....they were on final, ILS but visual conditions, I think the captain was at the controls, A/P and A/Ts enagaged... the F/O said something like,"it doesn't look right", he said it twice or maybe three times, the Captain said something like "it looks normal"... seconds before touchdown, the F/O (non-flying pilot) reached over and pressed the TO/GA switch, but it was too late, the airplane was touching down as he did that, they ran off the runway.... once everything came to a halt, the captain asked the F/O "why did you do that"...... happened late 80s, maybe early 90s??
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Old 07-13-2009, 04:17 AM
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I'd say United 232 is an excellent example of when CRM did work - they brought a third guy up to work the throttles and help control the airplane - people still died but the situation turned out pretty good considering how dire their circumstances were.
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Old 07-13-2009, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by UCLAbruins View Post
here's one about bad CRM or what not to do (if you're interested)

an Asian airline (maybe Thai Airbus-310??).... the Captain was an "ex-pat", from the West somewhere, the F/O a national....they were on final, ILS but visual conditions, I think the captain was at the controls, A/P and A/Ts enagaged... the F/O said something like,"it doesn't look right", he said it twice or maybe three times, the Captain said something like "it looks normal"... seconds before touchdown, the F/O (non-flying pilot) reached over and pressed the TO/GA switch, but it was too late, the airplane was touching down as he did that, they ran off the runway.... once everything came to a halt, the captain asked the F/O "why did you do that"...... happened late 80s, maybe early 90s??
Korean Air A300-600R, 1994. Canadian CA and Korean F/O.
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Old 07-13-2009, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Short Bus Drive View Post
I have to do a safety presentation for Amtrak ground school
I'm sorry I couldn't resist..

exactly how much of their training does not take place on the ground?
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Old 07-13-2009, 06:33 AM
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You might want to look at United 811, Honolulu, 1989.
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Old 07-13-2009, 06:51 AM
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This is the incident you're looking for:

Air New Zeland, Flight 60 (NZ60)http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/apac/cnsmet_sg6/wp39.pdf

I've seen a video in recurrent ground school about it that included a recreation of that night. I don't remember if it was a Boeing video or not.

edit: I found the video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GelRBhJ4gmI

Last edited by iaflyer; 07-13-2009 at 06:54 AM. Reason: Added video
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Old 07-13-2009, 07:27 AM
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Yep, that was the one. If you use a 3-for-1, it always works.
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Old 07-13-2009, 07:50 AM
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Got it, thanks for the replies!!!
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Old 07-13-2009, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by RemoveB4flght View Post
I'm sorry I couldn't resist..

exactly how much of their training does not take place on the ground?
Just have to do a safety presentation, so I decided to do it on CRM. Being that the only thing I know is aviation, I am going to tie it in with train operations.
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