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I guess I just don't see the difference between someone upgrading on an E-175 and E-190 and an MD80 or 737. Is it the extra 40 or so seats that make it more difficult? Is it the extra flight attendant? I am not saying that PIC is worthless? I am just saying that PIC at a regional and PIC at a major is THE SAME THING! Now, would I put a brand new captain on a 777? No. There is more envolved in that kind of flying. Flying into Toronto and crossing the pacific are two different things. Let's get real. Total time has more to do with experience than PIC. Like I said before, who would you rather have flying your family? A 9 year Eagle FO who has 10,000 hours and all the experience that brings or a 2000 hour captain at some crappy regional? I guess you would pick the 2000 hour guy, because he has more time in the left seat.
That is all I'm saying. The experience is not limited to PIC only. However, we have seen from some that it is all that matters. |
Originally Posted by CALTEX
(Post 687833)
1. Get rid of PIC requirement for Mainline job. Replace with 5 year 121 experience. After 5 years, you are more than qualified to sling gear at the majors. This will solve all the problems of racing to the bottom to get that coveted PIC time. How many guys take crappy jobs with low pay, terrible work rules, sadistic management, and etc., just to get PIC? Who would take a job at a bottom feeder if all they need is years and not PIC?
2. Mainline guys stop giving up SCOPE to save pay, jobs or to get a shiny jet. The regional jet should have been mainline flying. Any plane that can leave the "region" should have been mainline. The jobs would have come back, the pay would be better than it is now, and the company is going to get the jet anyway. How many DC-3's are still flying? 3. Be willing to sacrifice. Do not pick up OT when staffing is low, or worse, guys on the street. Do not sell out your junior guys! Yes, you have been there, done that, but that doesn't mean it is someone else's turn to eat the sh.t sandwich. Ten years ago the senior guys sold SCOPE to save their A$$es and now it is the very thing that is killing the profession. I'm sure you can all add something, but these are the three things that I see need to be addressed. As for part 1, the majors hire future CAPTAINS, they don't hire FOs. If you have interviewed with a Major, you would know this. Therefore, they most certainly want to see PIC time and hear about your expreriences as a Pilot In Command. And as for #2 and #3, you are talking out both sides of your mouth. So which is it? Are we going to stop giving away scope to "protect jobs" or are you going to "protect first officers jobs?" Sometimes, you can't have both. Maybe your plan needs a little more work. |
Originally Posted by seafeye
(Post 688594)
There was certain assumptions made. But i think that a 15 year f/o at Airways is a reality. All i am saying is that you can take someone like that and give them a modest raise and you will have experience in cockpits.
The colgan accident showed us what happens when pilots are paid crap to just sit there. |
Originally Posted by CALTEX
(Post 688603)
I guess I just don't see the difference between someone upgrading on an E-175 and E-190 and an MD80 or 737. Is it the extra 40 or so seats that make it more difficult? Is it the extra flight attendant? I am not saying that PIC is worthless? I am just saying that PIC at a regional and PIC at a major is THE SAME THING! Now, would I put a brand new captain on a 777? No. There is more envolved in that kind of flying. Flying into Toronto and crossing the pacific are two different things. Let's get real. Total time has more to do with experience than PIC. Like I said before, who would you rather have flying your family? A 9 year Eagle FO who has 10,000 hours and all the experience that brings or a 2000 hour captain at some crappy regional? I guess you would pick the 2000 hour guy, because he has more time in the left seat.
That is all I'm saying. The experience is not limited to PIC only. However, we have seen from some that it is all that matters. |
Originally Posted by CALTEX
(Post 688603)
I guess I just don't see the difference between someone upgrading on an E-175 and E-190 and an MD80 or 737. Is it the extra 40 or so seats that make it more difficult? Is it the extra flight attendant? I am not saying that PIC is worthless? I am just saying that PIC at a regional and PIC at a major is THE SAME THING! Now, would I put a brand new captain on a 777? No. There is more envolved in that kind of flying. Flying into Toronto and crossing the pacific are two different things. Let's get real. Total time has more to do with experience than PIC. Like I said before, who would you rather have flying your family? A 9 year Eagle FO who has 10,000 hours and all the experience that brings or a 2000 hour captain at some crappy regional? I guess you would pick the 2000 hour guy, because he has more time in the left seat.
That is all I'm saying. The experience is not limited to PIC only. However, we have seen from some that it is all that matters. I'm not sure how old you are but hopefully you have time on your side. Hopefully you'll be able to log PIC jet time the same way most of us did before landing a position at a major. I would be way senior had I left my former employer with thousands of hours SIC time. Unfortunately, the market dictates the required qualifications. I have to say, my type ride in an RJ was tougher than my SIC ride at a Major. I think the guys doing the hiring at the Majors know if you've passed a PIC type ride and Captained a jet successfully for a few years, you should cope with training at the next level. Al |
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
(Post 687855)
Why would you exclude thousands of corporate, charter, and fractional pilots, most of which have PIC experience, from working for a major airline simply because they went 91/135 and not 121?
Carl |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 688700)
I agree BoilerUP. Especially since the corporate pilots don't accept starvation wages to gain experience for the majors. All while wrecking the profession of the very major airlines they aspire to. Corporate and fractional guys would be top picks along with military guys if I did the hiring.
Carl |
Originally Posted by CALTEX
(Post 688603)
I guess I just don't see the difference between someone upgrading on an E-175 and E-190 and an MD80 or 737. Is it the extra 40 or so seats that make it more difficult? Is it the extra flight attendant? I am not saying that PIC is worthless? I am just saying that PIC at a regional and PIC at a major is THE SAME THING!
Having said that not all airlines require turbine PIC but it's a standard that has been set that I don't think is going to change anytime soon. Not sure where you sit at your company but as an RJ F/O I thought I was pretty hot stuff. Once I upgraded I realized I had lots to learn and still feel that way now. Your time will come and there will be a day which will test you and your crew to it's limits. Be hopefull that you have a bucket full of experience to draw from to get you through it. Good luck with your career. |
Originally Posted by flaps 9
(Post 688491)
Great Post!!!!
Seem like all we have on here now is a bunch of whiny, crybaby, regional F/O's who are finding out that the recruiters and advertisements were all false. There is no shortcut for experience......plain and simple. Until you have several thousand hours of 121 PIC can you make the statement that it's not needed. I highly doubt CALTEX will feel the same once he sits in the left seat for a few years. |
Originally Posted by jparker371
(Post 688750)
what about single pilot 135 PIC? are we leaving that out? is this not as valuable because box's (most 135 gig's) dont b*#ch?
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