Sounds like a blast flying right seat with those 1 knot types. :rolleyes:

I have a digital airspeed readout in my airplane and if I tried to hold it +/- 1 knots - I'd be all over the place. My landing profile is fairly exact too so if this +/- 1 kt is the standard I'll have to look elsewhere ;) I have to say that I'm more of a captnjs type of pilot :p

USMCFLYR

In my limited experience the 1 knot types tend to "miss the forest through the trees"

Concentrating on that 1 knot of airspeed will lead to tunnel-vision, and thus missing the big picture.

I've observed a bunch of Yeagers out there jockey those thrust levers back and forth just for that one knot. And of course the control column moves back and forth to counter the continuous thrust adjustments too. And lets not forget about the trim wheel constantly on the go either. All this and more right down to the flare. All you need is the sound track from Airport and you have the perfect movie.

But seriously folks... notwithstanding non-normal configurations, wind checks are essential during autolands to ensure the headwind, crosswind or tailwind components are not exceeded as contained within the Aircraft Operations Manual.

Also some aircraft do have crosswind limitations for wet runways, and runways that are less than 150 foot in width.

[QUOTE=SilkySmooth;691727]

> Well, when the wind has been the same for the past 6 hours,
> one begins to wonder.

Sorry, we weren't here 6 hrs ago.

SilkySmooth,

Regarding your question about tower-reported vs. ND wind, Airbus says that the tower reported winds are to be used in respect to cross-wind and autoland limitations. That said, good judgement should always prevail. If, for example, on approach to KLGA at 100 ' my ND still says I have a twenty knot tailwind, that's a missed approach.

Though I agree that there are many valid reasons to ask for a windcheck, I am more of a captjns type as well. I find that if you maintain good S.A. throughout your entire flight, instead of chasing that 1 KIAS, it is likely that you would hear the winds reported to the aircraft 6 miles ahead of you landing or taking off from the same runway that you are about to land on.

LOL Wind check please!:)

I do it because I like to hear myself on the radio - I sound so cool.

Actually, as an Air Force heavy type, I seem to remember that is is beaten into your head (at least in initial training) to always ask for a wind check.

Old habits die hard, I suppose.

Hi!

I ask for a wind check whenever I feel like it...learned it in the Air Force (and I am not Delta...not for lack of trying!). I also find it amusing when I'm with a civilian pilot and we have an Air Force tower...we get the "Check Gear Down" call from the tower, and the civvy guy looks at me like we forgot something!

I try to fly the correct speed. On our gauges, I can't see one knot. As opposed to being exactly on speed all the way down the approach, I prefer to land.

cliff
NBO

It's a military thing.
Military pilots are alway trying to make every landing perfect and don't have "who cares, I am just a bus driver" mentality like most Regional, burned out guys who sold their souls for substandard pay and rules.

Simply gives you better SA. Attention to detail thing.

As a regular jumpseater on Delta mainline, I've seen the reems of paper that routinely roll out of your ACARS printers, spewing out continuously updated ATIS reports. Sorry, you may not have been there, but every good Delta pilot knows what the winds were 6 hours ago.;) That darn printer doesn't stop from T.O. 'til touchdown. Remember, there can never be too much information:)

Been there, done that. 2 am in the morning at 200 feet, the winds were still 30 knots on the tail, even though the ASOS was reporting "winds calm." We went around, even though that hotel bed was calling our names.

Yeah, we regional guys could care less about making a decent landing. We never aspire to do things perfectly like the almighty mainline pilots. :D

I'm going to assume you're kidding, man.

-I've asked for a wind check when the airplane seems to be doing something very different than expected based on what the ATIS had and have had captains remark to me that "What does it matter, you're going to land anyway". IDK what the problem is with getting proper information?

The read reason we ask for the wind check is that when they clear us to land, we are so worried about turning on the light switch that lets us know we are cleared to land, we forget the winds! :D

Actually, unless you are landing with the auto-throttles on, every landing requires some sort of additive predicated on the surface winds...if you don't know what the winds are, you are not doing it correctly.

You seem to have a real ignorant attitude about all this.
Keep being "cool" and not asking for a wind check....I will keep gathering as much Information as I can.

Yeah, if the crap keep coming out of the printer and they are not hitting the print function, it is coming from the dispatcher. Even the auto-update function on the ATIS will not print.

Yes, speed is your friend up to a certain point depending on length of runway, conditions etc.

Just a question or two though: If you can hold your speed at an additional 5 knots, why not hold your speed, like the manufacturer recommends, at Vref plus additive? Like you said, what difference does 5 knots make?

Then, when speed does become a factor, you are used to holding the proper speed. Not 5 knots above proper speed. You remember safety and the swiss cheese analogy?

I'm not trying to pick on anybody but, again, if you can hold 5 knots above proper speed, why not hold proper speed?

Sorry for the thread drift, I agree with the ones who say what's the big deal? More info is better.

Denny

Denny you are correct again.

It is said that in the CRJ for every knot over your Vref+additive you are at 100 feet that is 1000 extra feet of runway. Just keep that in mind. Even 10,000 feet goes by real quick.

WOW! That seem incredible. I thought you guys had thrust reversers and such to help out too. This type of relationship certain doesn't translate in my aircraft and I only have speed breaks to help out (and I don't normally use them), and I am of course talking land based here :p.
My regular approach speeds are around 135 kts and I can, and have, comfortably landed at 150+ kts for a variety of reasons and I didn't use 15,000 of extra runway! :eek:
I guess I ought to be a little more worried next time I go into San Diego that the crew is flying right at the required approach speed because that runway looks awfully short enough!

USMCFLYR

In the CRJ, it is the float factor in that jet.

I fly to SAN all of the time, what the 767/757 has that many airplanes don't is great brakes.

As you know, you can land at speeds above normal approach and landing speeds but why would you if it is not necessary due to conditions? In my opinion, landing fast (even 5 knots), if not necessary for conditions, is building a bad habit pattern for the future when you might need to be precise. I had an instructor, whom I greatly respected and who was a great pilot, once tell me exactly what I'm asking now. If you can hold 5 knots above proper speed, why aren't you holding proper speed? I didn't have a good answer for him.

ACL is right about the float factor in a heavy (not fighter!!:D). I don't know the exact numbers but you will definately add greatly to your landing distance unless you touchdown fast.

My point is, when you are flying a fully loaded 767 into LGA on the expressway visual you do not want to be fast and float down the runway with the associated problems. If you are on speed in these situations you eliminate a host of possible problems.

Denny

1st bold: Agree completely - if not due to some reason that the pilot feels he needs to carry a few extra knots. Of course my post was more addressing the landing distance estimation if landing a few knots faster than normal rather than the exercise of why someone would be landing fast to begin with.

2nd bold: If someone is holding a few knots extra for a reason then he really isn't building bad habit patterns - for the present or the future.
Btw - it isn't as necessary for me than many others I know (usually land based) - but I promise you that you would never need to be more precise on landing than many of my peers have to be on a regular basis. They have pretty good habit patterns built when it comes the landing pattern and such ;)

3rd bold: This is good advice (and attention to detail) holds true for more than just airspeed too - wouldn't you agree? Altitude, heading and any other deviation one can think of all fit into this same category. It is all about attention to detail - without losing the big overall picture of course!

4th and final bold: Now this makes alot of sense - talking FLOAT factor rather than stopping distance. Again - I don't think much about the float factor right now - but I hope too in the future :o
Still seems a little excessive, and I'm not into the math enough to try and figure it out, but I can see where it eats up plenty of extra runway to bleed off some amount of *extra* airspeed.

USMCFLYR

I agree with everything you say. In regards to your second bold, that is why I prefaced it with "if not necessary for conditions." If you need to do it then you are not flying 5 knots (or whatever) fast, you are on speed.

I absolutely agree that it is all about "attention to detail" on all aspects while maintaining a big picture. That same instructor said the same thing when I was holding altitude a 100' high thinking that was close enough. I can still hear him saying "If you can hold it 100' high you can hold it on altitude. Now get down there!!" Some people may call it anal, but I call it being a professional pilot.

Good luck with your future endeavors!:)

Denny

Somebody once told me there is no max crosswind component listed for the DC-3, you simply look at a chart and fly a faster and faster speed given the wind strength. I like extra speed in a crosswind but on speed on a headwind keeping the power in til touchdown. But thats just me.

Denny, I too loved holding altitude at 100' above when I was getting my instrument rating and my flight instructor would just say "man, if they'd told you to hold 4,100', you'd be perfect. Too bad they didn't."

Great post, Denny!

This is exactly what I was talking about as far as conditions go. Not every situation is cut and dried. This is where judgment, experience etc comes into the equation. All I'm saying is......fly the speed you decide on.....not 5 knots above (or below:D). On a normal, VFR, 5 knot additive, on speed (:D), I'll carry power till I break the sink or just before.

Sorry for the thread drift.:)

Denny

Do some IPs cause what they complain about?
 

For some instructors, a good answer would be: "Because you get far more upset when I am 5 knots (or 100 feet) low than when I am that amount high." For example, simulator IPs told us that the tolerances on flying at an MDA were pus 100 feet to minus zero feet, so we should "target" MDA plus 50 feet.

As for speeds, I always fly off the ADI, you have speed, azimuth, and glideslope all in one place. The speed donut which I believe in most airplanes references ADCs and inertial accelerometers, in my opinion, is the best way of managing speed while on approach and landing. The airspeed indicator can be erratic durng gusts and will have you chasing power all the way down.

My was not related to additives. But thanks for the reminder:rolleyes:.

I appreciate your comment, and agree. But the approach along with speeds and performance are briefed, usually before TOD. We may adjust the bug speed as appropriate to reported wind conditions prior to commencing the approach. However, dynamics, due to turbulence, unexpected wind shifts may require a bit of extra speed, which should be brought to the NFP attention.

However speed creep of a couple of knots either way is just not worth chasing and may cause one to destabilize their approach.

We operate the -800 into an airport that has about 5,900' of ALD with 189 paxs and R/T fuel to boot.

Wind check please.

I absolutely agree with everything you say. The proper approach and landing speeds can be dynamic and changing depending on the conditions encountered. We are on the same page!:D

Denny

It should be check the wind from behind:D. Could not resist.

The trusty NG, or other Boeing products that I have flown do not have the donut. The speed tape in turbulent conditions can be quite an effort to read. As you know the information presented on the PFD goes through alot of information processing before you see it. Starting with Bernoullies, converted to googoo-fonics in the ADIRU then off to the symbol generator and voila the PFD. The standby ASI is a lot less jumpy.

You're welcome.
I thought you were inferring that perhaps x-wind/t-wind limits were the only good reason for a windcheck. If so, I was correcting that inference.

Is this really keeping you up at night? Sometimes I feel like asking for a wind check, sometimes I don't. Delta seems pretty much just like every other carrier out there. Mix of guys who do ask and don't ask.... I think you should get off the idea that it clogs up the radios, that's pretty silly. Too much other stuff to worry about to get all wrapped around private pilot issues like this.

Just a point of order, in Europe, when cleared for takeoff or landing winds are given by the tower controller.

Very good point CAVOK. I am an active CFI. I purposely train at uncontrolled airports without wx information. When asked about wind conditions, I respond who gives a rat's a$$... just land the plane and we'll discuss it on the ground.

After the plane is on the ground taxying in to the FBO I enjoy watching the smirk on the student's face. I ask him, well what about the wind? They say... "We don't need no stinken wind reports!"

That is what I like to transcend to my students when conducting line training on the NG. Who give a rat’s a$$... just fly and land the damn jet, and we’ll talk about it on the ground. You know what??? I get the same smart a$$ smirk form the newbie in the right seat. It's a beautiful thing.