Teamsters duty time proposal
 

Where are the Teamsters with Duty Time proposals?

I never hear anything about the Teamsters union on safety, duty time, outsourcing flying, integration policy, .... At least ALPA is fight for US pilot in Washington D.C.

Think about it!

Teamsters is a garbage man's union. They have better benifits than I did as a teamsters pilot..

There's a reason a lot of groups are dumping IBT! Look no further than NJ pilots, ATI, and now North American. They don't represent the aviation industry well. I'll second what EmbraerFlyer said. They're a garbage man's union.

So if you want to end up with better pay then the choice would be Teamsters over ALPA then. Garbage men make better money than pilots who are represented by ALPA.

My question is...

Do you have information on Teamsters National getting involved in airline pilot issues or having a stand/help advancing our profession?

I have not.

Like Larry the Cable Guy says; "That there's just funny, I don't care who you are."

ALPA has done nothing about outsourcing pilot jobs. Ask the Atlas pilots who got a foreign base and crewmembers shoved down their throat. Eight years of lost seniority, out of seniority furloughs and lost flying. Only after they went to the IBT did the union...the IBT...get it closed.

Now UAL is going to do it...what's ALPA doing?

The IBT has been non stop on Capitol Hill fighting outsourcing of pilots and MRO's. They blocked Frontier's efforts to outsource and have just won two rounds of bringing back outsourced and offshore maintenance and aircraft refits at United...with more to come.

Meanwhile, how's ALPA's negotiation...oops, mediation...going over there?

They shutdown Amerijet and got them a first contract. With labor unions from every arena...yeah, including those dreaded "garbagemen" to come out in support of those 60 pilots. The support was from airline pilots from across the spectrum and thousands from the AFL-CIO, Teamsters and others...when has ALPA ever done that?

And the only union who DIDN'T show up?

ALPA National.

ALPA pilots and individual LEC's and MEC's supported them. IBT carriers, UPS, American, USAPA (East AND West), SWA...so many others...

The promised "delegation" from ALPA NEVER SHOWED or CALLED...

Flight Time and Duty Time? Go check the Congressional records on who's been up there. IBT Airline Division.

Who did Sully and Skiles ask to go to Capitol Hill with them and attend meetings on Flight Time and Duty Time? IBT Airline Division.

Who's working on crew outsourcing? Yep, those "garbagemen" again.

Who offered to sign a contract that would allow the pilots of ATI to be whipsawed against ANY pilot group? And give management a model of how to do it with other airlines? IF they decertified the IBT and joined ALPA???

ALPA

Who said they would not sign any agreement that allowed whipsawing of any pilot group against ANY carrier REGARDLESS of union affiliation?

IBT Airline Division

So under the new IBT Airline Division leadership, they have gotten rid of a corrupt Local president, forced an airline management to sign a contract with pay and benefit improvements and no concessions, gotten jobs back, working to negotiate better contracts than the past, ended a bunch of outsourcing, stood up against whipsawing, provided language for legislation on Capitol Hill protecting pilots, worked to revise retirements and pensions for pilots, and for the first time in the history of airline pilots, gotten people from ALL walks of life to stand up, walk the picket line and OPEN THEIR WALLETS to support PILOTS.

Yep, they lost ATI. Whose union leadership was in the pocket of the guy who got thrown out. Who was told if he'd take a whipsaw deal, the holding company would give him jets and jobs from ABX. IBT said "no"...Prater said, "come on over...I'll sign it!"

IBT lost ATI's 155 pilots because they wouldn't agree to whipsaw. ALPA lost USAPA because they wouldn't get off their ass to figure out how to address the seniority arbitration, and lost Atlas and Polar because Prater lied to their MEC about getting off his ass and getting a 3 year old merger done.

And then there's Midwest Express...your carrier MD80, right? Did Prater ever "change his zip code" as he promised? As I recall, he tossed you and your MEC to the wolves when he refused to provide financial assistance on the merger front.

No one ever said IBT does not have warts from past leadership. They are fixing that.

So far, all ALPA has done is call them "garbagemen, truckers, bakery workers..." not worthy of representing pilots.

I wonder how the guys at Pinnacle, Hawaiian, and even Midwest are faring under those new contracts? How about the new spiffy TA at ATN? That's where the IBT Airline Division just wrapped up a new contract for the mechanics too...with better pay and job security.

Their leadership works for probably less than 50% of the pay of the ALPA National leadership. How's that working out? Any ALPA leaders taking pay cuts while ALPA pilots are furloughed?

Odd thing is despite what you may think or will be told, I don't hate ALPA. I do however despise what the current elected leadership has done. They've run a great organization staffed by wonderful people into the crapper. They've failed miserably on every organizing drive except Colgan and ATN...who just wanted to go anywhere. They lost Skywest, JetBlue isn't interested nor are others. They are begging USAPA to come back, but that's not happening.

They've cut services and staff. Imposed work rules. Lost carriers. Can't pay the bills. And trash anyone who isn't ALPA.

Sounds like Airline Management 101.

Now they have an all out push to raid IBT carriers because they need the money to pay the bills.

That's what is sad. And ticks me off. Their refusal to admit mistakes and rectify them, and in doing so, hurting pilots and their families because of their arrogance and ego's.

Now...I will say...ALPA does have one thing over the Teamsters that the IBT will never have...

A really big inflatable rat...:cool:

IBT safety proposals = taking ALPAs proposals and changing the name to IBT.

Trojan...if you're so confident about that, why not call Don McClure at ALPA, 703-689-2270...ask him what's going on in the Air Safety office...or if anyone is even still working there with the pay and job cuts.

First, let me start off by saying that I am by no means a cheerleader for IBT.

Before, when RAH was only CHQ, the pilots tried to get ALPA for union representation. ALPA pretty much told them to go pound sand. That is one reason why many of the senior guys are still carrying a grudge against them. And frankly, after Prater threw the Colgan crew, and regionals as a whole, under the bus during the Congressional hearings I have no desire to send them any part of my paycheck. Unless your Delta, or one of the legacies, ALPA doesn't really seem to give a rodents rectum. Being Midwest I'm sure you're aware of that.

IBT knows lots of their pilots across its certificates are not happy. The RAH/ Midwest/ Frontier/ Lynx integration will make us almost half of the 747's total membership and many folks are talking of dumping the Teamsters. Some serious talk has been started about going independent and the local is worried. And so, lately the 747 has been trying to step up its game. They recently put out this press release that was carried by the AP and a few other news agencies. Eventually, it would up on the RJET stock news feed for Yahoo! and a few other financial websites:
Punitive Attendance Policies at Regional Air Carriers | International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT)
Apparently, when WH saw it going out to the investors he was PO'd and supposedly that was the reason for denying the now infamous FO pay LOA. While we knew there was no way in Dante's seventh circle that the LOA was going to pass (whole different ugly story) it was still nice to see Heller's cage rattled.

IBT knows lots of their pilots across many certificates are not happy. The RAH/ Midwest/ Frontier/ Lynx integration will make us almost half of the 747's total membership and many folks are not happy with the Teamsters. Some serious talk has been started about going independent and the local is worried.

MD80 I can understand with what’s happened to Midwest that you are disgusted with Republic and the IBT but isn’t ALPA just as responsible?

The looming question for all of us in this integration process is who will end up representing all parties, ALPA, IBT, FAPA, UTU?

I know quite a few TWA pilots who have never been recalled, I sincerely hope the same does not happen to your group, you deserve better.

BTW, an E190 was in DEN last night in Midwest colors without the “connect”. :mad:

I was kidding there bud. I volunteer my time on one of the committees at RAH with the wonderful IBT. Doesn't mean Im an IBT cheerleader but you can't complain unless you have put in some time right? ;) I know I don't want ALPA here but Im not completely against going at it alone. The IBT has been making some steps, albeit small ones, to improve the communications and try to get the new higher ups in tune with what the pilot group wants. Recently announced that they are going to start monthly web video conference calls that will be a Q&A Town Hall type feel. They also have a flurry of online surveys coming out to try to get the EXCO and negotiating committees more in tune with what the entire group wants. I was pretty down on the IBT until they really ticked WH off. If they are gonna have the balls to rattle managements cage a little more often then things are moving in the right direction in my opinion.

........................................

I would not call myself a fan of ALPA or Teamsters considering the events at Midwest.

In the future a vote will be coming at the new Republic Airways for representation. I have been a ALPA member for years and need to understand the +/- of IBT verses a independent union.

What are you getting at with this?

As a continual lurker on the forum I have seen countless and in many cases unjust attacks on unions from other unions (ALPA vs. IBT vs. different independent unions and etc). This is probably the most disturbing trend I’m seeing in our profession. I’m no old timer, but I have been an airline pilot for 15 years and an airline brat my whole life. I think we all need to ask ourselves “How’s this been workin’ for us?” I think it hasn’t and never will.

MD80 – I hope that your thread was not started to try and stir up any union agenda. You asked an honest question and it sounds like ATCsaidDoWhat has given you plenty of information as well as a link to pursue your own investigation.

EmbraerFlyer and B7ER Guy – ALPA in the last magazine put out a message that declares the importance of teaming up with and leveraging all walks of labor. That came out after the IBT did an incredible job using that type of tactic to pull off a strike. Let’s face it, without that type of support, how easy would it have been to replace 60 pilots?

The elitist mentality of airline pilots vs. other LABOR groups is truly disgusting. If you two want to try to go it alone…..good luck, look what that has done for our industry.

From my research on line, the IBT has an entire Airline Division run by Pilots and an Assistant Division Director that is a former 23 year ALPA Lawyer and Contract Administrator. To say that they are being represented by a group that is unfamiliar with pilots is just plain foolish.

TrojanCMH – I have no idea the validity of your claim. I will say that I am impressed and always will be impressed with the safety initiatives that ALPA has put in place on behalf of ALL pilots. If the IBT were in need of a safety proposal, why reinvent the wheel. The Amerijet strike is obviously a place where ALPA can learn from the IBT. These two Unions should work together, and it’s members should demand nothing less.

What we have here is a problem with MEMBERS of the Unions, spending our time engaging in bashing individual unions and members instead of using that time and energy to promote the careers of every airline pilot. Meanwhile the Air Transport Assoc. guys would just love to see airline pilots fragmented as a group.

One last thought. I have to agree with ATCsaidDoWhat, When I went as an ALPA pilot down to the Amerijet Strike, I saw plenty of ALPA pilots. I did not see any support or communication of support from ALPA National until the strike was almost over. Those ALPA pilots, the ones that showed up were embarrassed by their National Leadership. I was as well. That’s no bash on ALPA the members. It’s an indication of what needs to be changed. Let’s start working together.

The Teamsters Director of Safety was an active participate in every arc meeting for new proposal times. Teamsters Local 1224 Position: Regulatory Change Should Enhance Safety | SYS-CON MEDIA

I just talk to the Teamsters Director of Safety, and here's what's going on.
On the last day of the arc meeting, they agreed that nobody would go public with the proposed rules they came up with prior to the FAA finishing their work. Industry (management) put out their rules first for some sort of hidden agenda, then Alpa put their rules out to calm the pilots. Teamsters and Capa are sticking to their promise, they have made press releases and sent letters to Randy Babbit about their stance on the issue, but are not putting out their proposed times until after they agreed to do so.

It was just a deleted post 'cause I asked a question about WH that was answered on the previous page (which I failed to read):)

Southwest and Jet Blue have independent union.

Do they get involved in these meetings or pay a lobby group to represent their opinions in Washington D.C. ? (example: developing the CASS system)

Why not start by asking them? Believe it or not you can call or write and speak with someone.

I guess my sarcasm didn't come off as intended. I was kidding. Nice font though :)

I have been an ALPA member and a FAPA member. Independent and national unions both have their pros and cons, but if I had a choice (hopefully there will be a representation drive soon at RAH) I would choose Independent in a heart beat.

I suppose dentists and doctors have elitist attitudes vs their community college graduate co-workers? If any other labor group had to bring HALF to the table to get their job that a pilot does than you might have a point.

Originally Posted by T Dawg
The elitist mentality of airline pilots vs. other LABOR groups is truly disgusting. If you two want to try to go it alone…..good luck, look what that has done for our industry.


I understand TDawg's point...and he's right.

We as pilots have always seen ourselves as "better than" other labor groups. Maybe it's the uniforms or that we fly planes. Yes, we have specalized licenses.

Let's cut to the chase. We move one of two things. People (passenger carriers) or commodities (cargo). So do bus drivers and truckers.

Yes, that's simplistic and offends. But put yourself in the seat of management for a minute. What do they call FA's? Glorified sky waitresses. They think of us the same way. Labor that produces a product (a safe flight) that moves a commodity (people or boxes) and generates revenue for the company, profit for the shareholders and bonuses for them...IF they can drive down the cost of production (wages and working conditions)

So to them, we are acting like a bunch of elitists. They sell the idea to the public everytime we want something. And the Walmart mommies and Wall Street daddies buy it.

The ONLY places we can turn for help are internally as ALPA has historically done; or externally as the IBT has done. ALPA puts up a picket line, has it's members fund it and pay strike benefits and hopes to bring management to it's knees in a deregulated environment where the strikers fellow union "brothers" shake their hand, write a check and then go to work...flying the passengers or cargo that their "brothers" are striking.

IBT, as recently seen with Amerijet, coalesced support from AFL-CIO unions, every other pilot union, the union that represent the Carribean refuelers where Amerijet flew, Congress (hearings), and everyoone else. They ALL supported those 60 pilots. The freight didn't move, the Amerijet offices and those of businesses in the building didn't get cleaned, the trash didn't get picked up, UPS and FedEx drivers didn't deliver, busses didn't pick up at the stop, other carriers found out if they hauled Amerijet cargo they would be struck...

And pilots walked the line supported both in person, unity AND financially by each person. A lot of money came out of wallets to support these guys.

See the picture?

When you cast a wide net, and don't turn your nose up or refer to other unions and incompetent or their members in derrogatory ways, amazing things happen.

It CAN be done. But just like safely operating the airplane...you gotta leave your ego at the door.

I think that might be what TDawg was talking about. Since he is a self proclaimed second generation airline brat (no slight there), I'd be interested in his first generations take.

This seems like a flash in the pan after observing the actions of Republic IBT with the Midwest takeover. Can't list any support from AFL-CIO or IBT747.

Do you remember Midwest pilots walking the line with Waste Management labor last year? No.. didn't think so.

Can't say I'm buying your words... but still listening.

I understand where you are better than you know. I have a few uniforms hanging in my closet as well.

Regarding the "takeover" by RAH management; don't forget that IBT begged ALPA National to come to the table. They said "no thanks, we're doing it OUR way." Which is fine, except that ALPA merger policy is not the guiding policy in a merger where a non ALPA carrier is the acquiring carrier. There are people like the IBT Airline Division's Deputy Director you can ask about this. He is a former 23 year ALPA Senior Contract Administrator and Negotiator. (He was one of the ones wrongfully "terminated" by ALPA during the contract negotiations) P/M me and I'll send you his contact info.

Yes, I do remember when your guys stood tall with WMI. I also remember there was a move to decert ALPA as well by a group of your pilots when you guys were getting shafted by ALPA National. Your shafting was partly political retribution for not supporting Prater when he ran for office. And given what has transpired, if I was your former MEC...I wouldn't change the vote.

You and your guys are in a crappy position. It was not created by the RAH pilots, the IBT, your MEC or you. I do know that the people who now run the Airline Division and Local 747 are very familiar (more than you can imagine) with your plight and believe that they will try to do whatever they can to help.

That said, those who continue to slap the RAH pilots and blame them for what happened or for the contract that was negotiated a long time ago serves no purpose other than to make them wonder why they should step up and help.

Just a thought...

JetBlue does NOT have a union..FYI..... anyone know what kinda of CBA was gained or any details that were fixed after the AmeriJet pilots stuck???

Whether I agree with your opinions of the RAH IBT or not you need to be corrected that there's a difference between a local and a national. You started off arguing what the IBT national is doing but used one local as your reasoning. Not the same.

I take offense to this statement. I worked for UPS and was a teamster for while working there. Don't worry, I think Unions, in general, are crooks. They are a necessary evil.

+1. IBT needs to go.

I guess the question I would have for the folks who want to go independent is this. Given the cost (and time) of ramping up an independent union, and the lack of "support" in terms of having other unions support you in a strike, job action, whatever...how much in hard dollars would you be willing to pay out of each paycheck to start and run your union?

I'm not taking any side here. I'm asking you to think beyond the poor service of the past that has changed, and the emotional of saying "I want it now," that we pilots are notorious for.

So...how much? $100? $200...more? less?