Delta Guys - Why did you Let Compass Go?
 

I am curious as to why you Delta guys unanimously voted for Compass to get our own MEC, while the NWA guys voted unanimously to keep Compass as part of the DAL MEC?

I think you stirred things up pretty good at CPS and possibly ruined a rather ok relationship.

You say "you Delta guys" like all 12,273 of us got to send in Ballots on this. The MEC members voted on this - the line pilots only got a letter after the MEC vote had been conducted.

Can't speak for the MEC reps, but the current representational structure is the most botched up thing in the world. What if Compass is in contract negotiations and wants to go on strike, who votes for that? Who goes out on strike? What if Delta wants to merge with Compass? Who represents the Compass pilots in seniority integration? Those are just a few of the numerous issues that are raised by the current scheme.

The current structure was an idiotic idea from the start and in my opinion was just political cover for the fact that Compass was taking DC-9 jobs.

The fact that you mention the Compass pilots are "stirred up" about this issue just points to the fact that there are competing interests here and each side needs their own representation. Delta pilots are not "stirred up" about it and most recognize the inherent conflicts. A split of the MEC does not alter the possibility of a merger one iota.

No hard feelings, but everyone should have their own representation.

Does this conflict of interest apply to mainline ALPA and regional ALPA, or just mainline ALPA Delta and regional ALPA Compass? :D

competing interests......:rolleyes:

We can see this as a bump in the road, or the end of the road, I personally prefer the former.

Just because you will have your own MEC does not mean that the relationship needs to cool. I would have like to see things done differently, but what is done is done. The MEC made the choice, and in doing so passed the political football up to National.

There were some representational issues with the DAL MEC representing CPS the way the current structure was set up. ( Even I admit that) I would have loved to see it dealt with differently.(inclusion not exclusion, and it still can be that way) The decision was made, and we willfully divested them. It will be easier for DAL to sell CPS. We should have waited so the company would need divestiture by us to complete the sale. That was giving something for nothing. (At a min). National has not made the decision yet, have they?

If asked the way I would vote I would have voted to delay the decision at a min. As the NWA guys put it, those jobs were there jobs created in 1113C. It is a very contentious issue at this level.

National Voted on 10/28 a unanimous vote for Compass to have their own MEC.

Don't understand why the MEC voted now. If they would have waitited until until all the 747-2 were parked the vote would have not have been close. Loosing 4 LEC reps so it would have been 13-8 that looks a little better

There was more to that vote that meet the eye, or so I have been told.

Well National has voted, and it is what it is. Instead of looking in the rear mirror at what should have been done, lets look at how we can strengthen the bond with the new CPS MEC. I urge pilot at CPS that want a strong bond with DALPA to work very hard to get voted in. I know that we are talking Oct 2010, but if you do not like what you think may happen, get involved and run so you can represent your pilots best interests. If you allow four or five guys that you all seem to talk about, rule the roost you are going to be very upset at the results. You future and how you deal with it, is now in your hands.

I did not like the decision, but it is what it is, and it is not one that will be changed. Simply put, National made the decision, and now you must work for an effective MEC that will will represent your interests with vigor. Most of the CPS guys I talk to want to keep a close relationship with DALPA. Do not let people change that.
If you look at this decision and let it paralyze you, you will be ineffective. Look at it and see what good can come from it. You now will have a MEC that can work for your bests interests towards inclusion.

Like I said, this is a bump in the road, and we all can deal with it effectively.

Maybe someone should have asked the Compass pilots what they wanted to do.

I totally agree with that statement. It appears they did not do that.

And now you see one of the issues. They did ask the Compass pilots, their reps are the Delta reps. The Compass pilots want to have their opinion considered separately from the Delta pilots. You can't have that with one set of representatives.

Seems like it could be a representational nightmare depending on the issues which come before the combined MEC.

Comair, a wholly-owned, does not sit on the DAL MEC. And if I recall, XJT was split from CAL's MEC as well.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but seems to be appropriate to me that CPS have its own MEC to conduct its own business. Nothing says their still can't be coordination with the branded MECs.

Are you saying that the Compass pilots literally were asked, or rather that the Delta reps made the decision...which was split right down former company lines, with the NW side voting to retain Compass.

The vote revealed a split in our MEC right along former Company lines.

The vote itself was a mistake. As others have written, we could have deferred the vote, or made no recommendation to National. Instead we revealed our weakness and our divisions to the rest of the World to see.

The outcome of the vote was also a mistake that we will regret. We created a conflict where there was an opportunity to create unity. We decided not to represent Delta pilots who may flow down to Compass. We decided to create orphans in the next merger or corporate acquisition. We decided NOT to fly a new generation of aircraft which may very well be an interim solution to the 100 seat jet. We ujndermined our own negotiating power by outsourcing more of it.

The inclusion of the Continental Express pilots was working well until internal power struggles within the mainline Continental MEC pushed the split. We have Delta pilots who were Continental MEC members who were experienced in the issues and the solutions who stepped up and volunteered to help consider and restructure the Compass / Delta MEC ... those pilots were never even called. We had pilots who have worked in senior management at Fortune 100 Companies much larger than Delta who volunteered to provide economic analysis and look for the benefits of unity, sadly those pilots were also politely locked out of the process.

This Compass issue follows the long established pattern at ALPA. A pattern were pilots are divided and union members believe that it is appropriate to use our union to split the piloting profession into "haves" and "have nots" so that one pilot's work can help subsidize another pilot's pay. Once we accept ALPA-APARTHIED then all that's left is deciding where the line is drawn which divides us. Fighting over that "line in the sand" is where we spend far too much effort.

The next threat is scope by type rating. Management and the FAA see the E170 to E195 as one airplane type. Management is not likely to operate a E175 at Compass and a E190 at mainline. Already we see discussion here of letting the 100 seat flying go (and they say we'll get it back). When (if) that happens, remember the decision we made with Compass. We could have captured that flying.

It does not matter to Delta pilots who have their left seat on larger equipment. As long as they get theirs they don't care what happens to the Compass pilots, or even their First Officers out getting the walk arounds and garbage bags for them.

The direction our union is heading is absolute poison to the association. Divided we are weak. As we perform less and less of our flying we become irrelevant.

Very frankly, we need Reps in office who would have responded to a higher calling and not simply cast their vote with the Chairman. Pilots in every single Council except New York passed resolutions either asking for, or asking for the study of, UNITY. Those votes were ignored. Further, the Reps in C44 are in my opinion, the leaders of ALPA by virtue of the Atlanta base's size. They should have been looking further down the road than the negotiation of Compass's next contract.

I understand why they voted with Chairman Moak. He's done a great job, has a great reputation, he's smart and he's powerful. But there are times when you have to look at the Boss and say, "are you sure? I'm uncomfortable with that... and this is why..." and there are a set of brake pedals on the right side of the jet for a reason - use them if you have to.

There were answers to keeping Compass and restoring flying. The answers may have been ugly in the short term. But the alternative was to move the line and leave our own guys in hostile fire down on the beach. We left guys on the field - who cares they aren't jobs we want - right? :(

Great post bucking bar. The selfishness of some at Delta has damaged (for the time being) opportunity for all of us- Compass and Delta alike. I know the vote was not what everyone wanted, and I know there are many at Delta upset with the outcome. I hope with whatever the future brings for us both does not make us look back at how serious of a mistake this was for everyone. Unfortunately it appears (for the time being) that is where we are heading.

I'm hoping it will be a generational change. Our C44 Rep just wrote a pretty good article for our ROAR publication about the history of scope and he had a front row seat for most of it.

He left out the fact that we sold jobs for other things we wanted during concessionary negotiations, but the old negotiators notepads and ziplines fill in that part of the history.

Anyway - back to generational change ... my Dad's generation made nearly a million a year flying a 747, if you correct for inflation. Delta pilots made nearly the same. Inflation ate about half of that earning power and post deregulation concessionary bargaining ate another half. The guys in power now barely witnessed the big money (they only thought they did in 2001) but they've certainly seen a lot of loss. They now realize they will not retire anywhere near what their previous generation did. They are trying to balance making as much as they can during the years they have left with other concepts, like unity.

... and I'm not completely against their thought process. After all if they make more and retire better, so do I.

But the next generation of pilots will be mostly guys from the regional ranks who have seen their career progression decimated by outsourcing. They know first hand what the effects of whipsaw are on pay and job security. The major job that many pilots started in their 20's is now pushed all the way back to our late 30's and early 40's. I mean, who ever heard of a Delta hiring pool with an average age of 37, a Master's degree or better, a couple of major airlines, 5 Type ratings and 6,000+ hours of flight time, most int he left seat? But those were the numbers back in 2007.

One of my favorite quotes from XXXX was his asking "why are you former regional guys always such scope hawks?" ACL65 answered the question beautifully by saying - "because all this outsourcing stuck us at a regional for nearly a decade."

I'm hopeful that as the battle weary veterans of deregulation retire their seize mentality retires with them. We can do this without burning our furniture to stay warm... and truthfully, the next generation has different expectations and understandings.

There will be little skirmishes, like this Compass vote which the young bucks lost. But, the trend is fairly obvious. Things are changing.

Excellent couple of posts Bucking Bar

TC

Bar,

+10 from an old guy

So how long until I get my million a year? I really hope we get this new group elected. Then the battle weary veterans can sit back and watch them pound away at reality and throw darts at their efforts. Since it is all so easy, I figure I will give them a couple of months before I declare them failures.

The CPZ decision to go to vote was terribly short sighted, and I see it coming back to bite us in some, as usual, unforeseen fashion. Then we can write another article in the roar about how we didn't see it coming...


A vote was proposed to be put out to the CPZ pilot group by the CPZ coordinator, but the MEC nipped that in the bud. What does that tell you???

That's a whole lot nicer a response than I expected.

I do not expect that the outcome of this election will unscrew in a couple of months what took 25 years and tens of billions to create, but, at least we would have some people looking at ways to restore unity rather than selling it.

We really want the "FOR SALE" sign off our jobs.

The simple difference is that many of the guys running are willing to look at how, and not just create reasons as to why not.

As I have stated, I am not afraid of failing, I am afraid of not trying!

Bingo. Regardless of how the elections turn out, the attitude towards scope issues is far different then it was pre BK.

In response to a recently passed resolution, C44 is putting out a great deal of info on scope and scope history at LEC meetings, the C44 website and in the C44 news letters. I'm surprised other councils did not follow suit with their own resolutions. My hunch is that C44 scope briefs will continue after this election and become a routine part of LEC 44 meetings and publications.

I don't think there is a single candidate running today that hasn't committed to protecting scope.

There will be a lot of this coming from C44. I know a few of the FO reps candidates running will make sure of that ;)

Yes, and everyone else didn't try. It's not like we have had to deal with 9/11, a clueless management team, a deep recession, a hostile labor environment in Washington, two wars, doubling then tripling then quadrupling of fuel prices, the rise of LCC's, bankruptcy, a hostile takeover attempt, a merger, and now a deeper recession. I am probably leaving out a few things too. If you think it is because a lack of trying then you really have a very short time frame before you need to have results. I mean, if you try really, really hard, then I should be making a million or more in a few months, right. If you think better scope could have prevented this whole mess then you are laughably lacking in any strategic direction.

The fact is, you have no idea how hard it has been but you may soon find out. You guys are laser focused on your own belly buttons about scope and you may soon find out how much bigger the world is. I have seen this at countless pilot groups, you have some focused, single issue complainers get themselves elected by firing up a committed base, and then they start to wallow in the reality of the world. It is much more fun to sit on the sidelines and throw pies than it is to have to actually make something happen.

My guess is you have about a year before the pies start flying in your direction. Usually, the MEC then turns into a circular firing squad as we move into the blame game. You don't have to look to far to find a perfect example of this right now. If you play it right, you can have the pilot group fractured and infighting just in time for Section 6 negotiations to start. Hopefully, you will avert your gaze from your belly button and realize that these issues can't be solved by "trying real hard". Maybe you will come to understand how MEC's naturally are dysfunctional and it takes great effort to keep the team together, and that in and of itself is one of the most important things a leader can do.

I guess this battle weary group will just have to limp off and be satisfied with the fact that no one else came close to coming through this mess as well as we did. You can try to slough this off as lack of effort or lack of vision but you have no idea how tough it has been. Good luck, I am getting my pies ready.

We get it. Its been "hard". We have no idea how hard. We're all a bunch of ungrateful, uneducated whiners. Almighty Lee has led us through the wilderness when nobody else could have. We should elect Parker and Deist and the other "disciples" so Lee can continue to guide us on the path of righteous cooperation with management for our own good.

Bull. The Moak bunch have been in power for way too long. Its time for change.

There we have example number one. By the way, I don't care who you elect, I just care what they do with it once they are elected. When are you getting me my first million?

Good words of caution. They do not go to a deaf ear. But I regress.

First, I am not a single issue guy, but you know that. This point above that you quoted is in reference to the CPS issue. Every Rep I have talked to stated two of the three points that the MEC had an issue with. I gave you the fact that there WERE conflicts of interest with this. My point what that, I wanted to see a resolution to this issue that took a more timed approach, and a different outcome.
Fact is that there are a great many issues with the CPS structure, and were some unique opportunities with it. That has passed. The decision has been made. As I have said, let it be a bump in the road.

Second, if you take the point that I am not afraid of failing as a slap to you, the current reps/mec you misunderstood it. The point is that I am not afraid of trying to work my hardest for what our pilot wants and coming up short. (failing in the ultimate goal) I am pragmatic enough to realize as Bar put it, one term for one guy is not going to correct this ship. No, way no how.

We need to start by communicating a little better with out guys. That unto itself would allow the pilots to educate themselves on the issues. Like the last article in the Roar, we need more communication, and not necessarily from the Reps. We need opinions of the rank and file posted as well.
Understanding what the pilots want is not rocket science. Communicating that their goals and wants are in sync with the MEC is. That does not mean you/we will be able to obtain them. It means that the guys will know they are heard and their direction has been taken.

Getting you pies ready? really? spare me the drama.

Not one guy running is promising anything more than trying. They are not stupid to the fact that you cannot just snap your fingers and get what you want. You seem to think that I am totally and utterly disgusted with my current group. Wrong again. It comes down to communication, which I have seen some decent strides made in, in recent months. It is proof positive that at least the voices of those who want to be heard, are being heard.

If anyone is voting for someone because they think he can change everything, they better change their vote. You and I both know that is not possible. I want guys that are willing to look at any means necessary, from any source, to obtain what we all want. That is leadership.

In closing, I agree that MEC's by nature can be dysfunctional. Look at all of the special interests each faction of this group has. We have over 12,00 pilots. It takes a leader to make it work. It also take leaders to explain to their LEC's why decisions were made, and why they had to be made. That is the single biggest issue I have seen. People what to know when non-time critical LOA's are coming, and they want to know when they could not give input, how each of their reps came to the decision. I know that there are threats of lawsuits etc, but there has to be a way to make the reasons known to the group.

I have never stated that I have all of the answers. I am willing to take any idea and see where it goes. I want a win for this group. I am more interested in the idea than the source. That goes for me too. I am just one pilot in this group. I wholeheartedly know that if we get more involvement from the pilots, we will have greater unity in 2012. To do that, we need to get them engaged. To do that we need to communicate. With effective communication comes unity. With unity we have success.

If you want to throw pies, that is fine. I am willing to step up and give it the best I have. I knew there would be critics from the get go. It is what it is.

And to add one little tidbit. I have always been told why we can't, not that we have tried a,b, and c and the simple fact is that we want to but now is not the time, or we could not get all of that this time.

To me the junior guy, that is communication of the reasoning a rep is using to arrive at a decision, not just why not, or we can't or will not do something.

Let me add one more tidbit, if I may, especially for those in C44 who are like, "oh yeah, you know I need to vote..."

David Nestor
Chad Smith
Phil Martin

And wait, to those who are like, where do I need to vote?

Go to alpa.org and log in. You'll see a link with a VOTE button on the right side, click on it, vote. Simple.

Now, next trip, mention it. Make sure people know you are voting and encourage them to vote.

I like Pie.

That there might be a representational conflict of interest?:p

Sure would have been easier to not screw the pooch instead of trying to prove how big their johnsons are.

You guys sure do love that self fulfilling prophecy, don't you? Oh, and still waiting for you to man up on the latest and greatest thread.

Toodles.

Is there interest of conflict between top 1% of the list and 98% of the list?

It isn't personal and I don't hold a grudge, but it is what it is. Slow, if you, or Alpha, were close to the bottom and saw the risk of your job being outsourced, or worse, being outsourced when management decides they want to merge leaving you on the curb, you would feel the same way about your representation. If we become Delta pilots at Compass, we'd prefer to be represented by our MEC.

You might be comfortable with your seniority, that this will never effect you. But our MEC represents us all and has a duty to not leave a handful of members out simply because they have issues that the MEC does not want to deal with. Remember, the NWA MEC created this thing BUT the Delta and Compass pilots will bear the brunt of the representational abandonment.

The Chair and the MEC do 90% of their jobs well. But they did screw this up. I'm over it, it is done and I support my MEC - but - the real risk to my job remains. We're out over the ocean without a raft. Hope you're right and the flight maintains altitude.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm............pie. :p

Back in 2007 there were still thousands of post 9-11 pilots still on furlough and/or pilots who were "stuck" in jobs waiting to get on with a "major" building time. My question is as a Compass pilot, why would I want to pay dues to a MEC that was commited to terminate my job? Like at every regional there are guys at the top of the list that like their seniority and don't want to move on. Reducing their flying hurts them. Obviously reducing regional flying should mean more jobs at the majors so it is good for most but not for all. My point is there are two sides to every story.

Don't get your point. Our MEC has not done anything to "terminate" your job.

The reason why it would be better for you to have a seat at the table, than to be locked out, is pretty obvious isn't it?

One of the reasons that I wrote to my Reps asking them to keep Compass in and put you guys on the list is that Delta would be unrestrained in using your aircraft to their full potential including acquiring the more capable versions if they wanted to. I also cautioned them that guys like you would immediately challenge our scope restrictions.

IMHO it was better to be seated at the same table than to challenge one another for flying.

Agreed. If we were at the table, at least if there was a decrease in our flying, it would mean more flying at the mainline, which would be good for us at Compass. Those that want to stay at a regional should know that their jobs are subject to the whims of mainline management .

Very few of us at Compass wish to make the regionals our last stop, most of us have flown for another regional and had to make the jump to CPS for a variety of reasons that demonstrated the folly of relying on a subcontractor for career security. Compass' unique lack of "lifers" represents an opportunity for DL guys to actually align their interests with DCI so we're all working towards the same goal rather than fighting over scraps. To most of us CPS guys, being kicked to the curb is a pretty clear signal that DALPA's current leadership has no interest in working with us - and by extension, has no interest in keeping outsourced flying close to the vest in preparation for an eventual recapture.

I do think that mindset has a good chance of changing in the coming years, perhaps starting with the current elections.