Trust me, there hasn't been much (if any) shifting of flying BACK to mainline. The numbers don't lie. At the peak in late 2001, there were nearly 14,150 pilots at AA. The number has dropped to a total of 8,643 with around 7,841 active line pilots. I don't have the eagle numbers in front of me, but suffice it to say that Eagle has increased in size dramatically since 2001. Eagle is recalling and rumored to be hiring next year while there are NO recalls on the horizon at AA. In fact, the latest rumor is 200 additional furloughs. Eagle is also taking delivery of an additional 22 CRSs beginning next year. Do you really think there will be ANY shifting of flying back to mainline?

That sounds more like something ALPA would negoiate it:rolleyes:

Not a true rumor at all... source?

The numbers from 2001 include TWA, not a reasonable comparison. Find me a legacy airline that HAS grown since 2001 (not from mergers). Want to work for UAL and have Tilton cramming it up your a**? How about USAir, selling their fleet to Republic? Or DAL.. they have over 8 different regional carriers doing their flying in everything from props to E-jets.

Your legacy business model is hurting bad. You can complain and cry about it or lead the industry to some change. The OLD way of doing business wont fly anymore.

This thread has been really constructive and informative. Lets get it back on track with minimal bashing of either AA or AE.

I don't understand why you're blaming us. Why don't you go to one of those Plan To Win meetings and vent your frustration there. All the folks in those meetings make the decisions.

But be honest, if AMR can't fill up a 76 on a certain route, will they keep using that 76? Nope, down grade it to a 75, 73, or 80. If they can't fill up those, then we're next. If they can't make money with us, then they will drop the route.

Come on dude...you know how this business is ran. Or maybe not.

Yes, I do know how it's run. It's actually pretty simple; work is outsourced to cheaper labor. In this case, it's Eagle, but in due time YOUR job will be outsourced as well. You can then attend one of those plan to win meetings - whatever that is.

WE ARE OWNED BY THE SAME STOCK HOLDERS...my pay stub says AMR like yours. How is this outsourcing? And as much as AMR talks about "Plan To Win", you don't know what that is? You do work for AA don't you?

If APA doesn't hold scope, the complaints by AA pilots about regionals stealing flying should cease, if you've got integrity. You can't leave a 20 dollar bill out on a curb and say that it's someone else's fault when it disappears.

Stand up, take responsibility for your own actions. If majors take the flying back and I'm out of a job, so be it.

I am not trying to make it sound all warm and fuzzy. But for me, and i would say hundreds of Eagle pilots, we want AA to be around as strong as ever when you retire and we are qualified to apply. I dont enjoy seeing Eagle taking over AA flying (i.e. ORD-SLC, ORD-DEN) honestly I really dont.

Would I like to fly a new leather smelling new E-190? Yes. But I am so happy to have a job right now. I commuted on a Mesa DH-8 and the CA, FO, and FA were all getting laid off in March. That hit a nerve with me.

After AMR announced the 2010 plan, I started getting sour looks in the terminal and jumpseating. We as Eagle pilots didnt do this. We want AA around with all the routes they had 10 years ago. Stop letting your union give up scope. Give your union the sour looks not us, big brother.

At one point we were restricted to JetStreams. Then got scope lifted for Saab 340s. Then got scope lifted for ATRs. Then got scope lifted for E-135s. Then 140s. Then 145s. Then 25 CRJ-700s. Now additional 22 CRJs. Whats next guys? Its your scope and union. Please dont give sour looks at Eagle pilots. We just work here.

Regional Pay = Lower Labor Cost
 

Okay, maybe not outsourcing, since AMR owns AA and Eagle. But, it most certainly is shifting flights from MD80/B737-size mainline jets with AA pilots flying them to ERJ145/135/CRJ700 flights with AMR Eagle pilots flying them.

I believed he pushed too hard this morning and this fell out of his ass...was to big to go down after three successive flushes so he decided to post here....

I'll give you that, but folks point'n the finger at me and many other of us at Eagle for decisions we didn't make. For most of us at Eagle, this is where we had to start to get into the airline industry. There wasn't a mainline carrier that would hire me with 1,200 hrs TT. I spent 13 years turning wrenches on F-15's, so I've had to pay my dues to get to where I am now. Many of us have similar dues paying stories, but for me, this is where I wanted to start because I wanted to work for AA.

I support you guys, but I feel the same is being reciprocated. Now, I just wanna do my time and get away from AMR. I say this job is better than sleeping in a tent in the middle of the desert in Saudi Arabia, but I'll work 13hr shifts, in 130 degree WX, 6 on/1 off, just so I don't have to hear how "I" took flying away.

Good luck to you AA guys...hold scope!

When APA is serious about stopping outsourcing they will find a way to get Eagle under their wing. It will be painful for APA, and Eagle, but it is in everyone's best interest long-term.

So far it's merely "intent" to acquire more CRJs. The wheels on this one have slowed way down in the last month evidently....

You American guys and gals have got to retain a strong scope language against outsourcing. Give up pay or work rules but do not budge one inch on the scope or you will end up like my fellow pilots and myself. Jobless while some regional flies your lines at dog food wages. We thought our language was strong and look what happen to us (Midwest). We were run out of town and replaced by lower cost, in some cases %70 lower wages, and less experienced crews who don't care about you or your career. Also, look at your "Code Share" language. That is how RAH got a foothold in Midwest and eventually took it over.

Good luck.

D.R.

strictly speaking, outsourcing would be in the BA/Iberia venture in the Int'l market. Outsourcing domestically would be the same GUAGE equipment to another operator. That was Reno and Canadian Air. When it ends up at the regional level whose CASM's are easily double mainline, then it is trying to salvage a market if possible before dropping it. If the market supports it, mainline will fly it. Mainline is not searching for tickle feed, they have always sought the cream that rose to the top. They are trying to preserve the network with RJ's if it can be saved. Movement between markets goes both ways: to the regionals and then back to mainline. Honestly, it would be foolish to do all of your sampling in this economy and make universal statements about regionals taking all the flying. It's survival mode gentleman. Look longterm.

This is econ 101, not a conspiracy - you have hit the nail on the head.

Eagle Jobs vs. AA Jobs
 

Noone is pointing fingers, just expressing frustration at the obvious whip-sawing occuring. In the past 15 years, regional carriers that previously only flew 50-60 turboprops on 100-200 NM routes to feed major carrier partners at large hubs have now expanded to 250+ RJs flying longer-haul, hub-and-spoke 500-1500 NM routes previously served by major carrier partner's larger aircraft. What many don't realize is that major airline jobs are going away, being replaced by lower-compensated regional jobs, and that is bad for anyone who wants to make a career in this business.

Economically, it makes sense; but what it really is is lower-cost relacement of higher-paying upper-middle-income jobs in this country. Look at Wal-Mart, K-Mart and Target, replacing full-service department stores such as Woolworth and others. Employees who earned higher salaries with full benefits are now laid-off or unemployed, while employees at discounters make much less with little or no benefits to speak of. (Read Lou Dobbs' "War on the Middle Class).

Someone earlier in this thread made a comment about Bob Crandall desiring all AA/AMR domestic flying to be flown by AMR Eagle pilots, and all AA Int'l routes to be flown by AA pilots. That would require about 200 AA large mainline jets with about 2500 pilots; AMR Eagle would need about 450-500 RJs with about 5500 pilots, approximately. Now, with AA's CBA vs. Eagle's CBA, that would outsource/replace/supercede roughly 6000 mainline jobs, which would go away and never return.

Is that what you or any other young pilot 'paying their dues' want? Do you want to be a regional pilot forever or do you want to fly at the major airlines? Because rest assured, if regionals keep expanding, and swallowing up mainline routes, there won't be any major airline jobs to aspire to.

Last I checked Eagle is limited in size to a certain percentage of AA flying; correct? So, they have not, nor have they ever, grown beyond that restriction. They have been continuosly hiring over the years because the job is so crappy that they had a very high turnover rate. Yes, they have hired a few thousand pilots over the last several years... and they have lost just as many as well; it was a status quo holding operation. Eagle increased in size because they purchased their subcontractors and made one airline out of several smaller ones, nobody has done any serious growing since 2001. Eagle has parked more planes than the 22 CRJ's they are getting. Last time I checked ATW, AA has been accepting 3-4 new 737's each month for the past several months that I've been watching it. As for routes, they go back and forth all the time. For example, I used to ride Eagle to Austin from RDU to visit family, for the past few years now I've been much happier to be riding the MD80 on the same route...

If AMR did not have the smaller jets to shift those flights to, the route would go unserviced. There isn't enough demand to run an 80 with the same frequency.... and if you don't have the frequency the pax will shift to the other company that does. So, in effect, by shifting those routes to the smaller plane, they are allowing AMR to remain somewhat profitable on routes that they woudl otherwise have to let drop.

AMR will want nothing to do with any alignment of AA and Eagle pilots and unless THAT changes, yes, this is all acedemic and thus unrealistic.

Not going to happen...........a wonderful fantasy though.

Again, what the APA and Eagle ALPA want is immaterial unless AMR wants it. They would only agree to something like this if they were convinced it was in their best interest.

It isn't and unlikely ever will be.

.........and like wise it could be said that AA pilots would steal an AE pilots job if they cound in a heartbeat. In fact..................THEY ARE TRYING !

The APA's proposal is to take ALL AE flying, even flying THEY NEVER DID, therefore AA is also no different than Republic, Gojet, CHQ or TSA etc. Well, actually there are THREE differences.

1. Many there believe that the airline world revolves around them and their interests.

2. ALL flying is their's unless they say otherwise.

2. They fly larger aircraft then the above similar carriers.

Not a single, solitary AE pilot has ever stolen a single, solitary AA job.

These decisions were made by AMR, but they did have one helper.................the bumbling incompetence of the APA.

AE pilots fly what they're assigned.

99% of the AE pilots aren't blaming CHQ pilots for what A-M-R wants to do, but it's always the same old garbage about those evil AE pilots sitting down with Arpey and crafting agreements to steal AA pilot jobs.

A pathetic broken record it's becoming.

The reason is it's too painful to blame the real culprit.........The labor group that ALLOWED their jobs to be "outsourced". That labor entity itself has also smashed all their mirrors, so they don't have to face themselves and they too are blaming others. The remedy is to regain not just all the flying they "lost", but everything else they themselves can steal.

Pot...........................meet Kettle.

This ain't how it happened, but I see where you're coming from.

No, that's not what I want and I completly agree. However, like AA, EGL has a right to exist. The only issue I have is folks saying we, they, or you are stealing. We (AA/EGL) only do what we are told. AMR is a business and will do what ever it takes to survive no matter what we think. We also gotta remember, a pilot group can kill an airline.

This is a game and we all need to learn how to play. We have to choose our battles wisely fellas.

I have sympathy for the APA pilots, I honestly do. They have been in the industry a long time and have seen some incredible highs and all the amazing opportunities this industry has offered. They have been the Kings of the skies, flown the best aircraft all over the world while making a very comfortable paycheck and working a gentleman's schedule.

Unfortunately, the industry(hell, the whole country) has changed dramatically. Wal-mart, fast food, globalization, economic crisis, 9/11, etc. The Golden Age of aviation is far behind us and it isnt easy to let that go (even for us who never experienced it) but we all have to let go of the past, seriously, and focus on how we can make the most of the future however scary it will be.

Look around the industry and it is easy to see the REAL threats that we as AMR pilots should be focusing on...

-Low Cost Carriers have invaded every major city taking leisure travelers (and now business pax) from AA.
-Eagle has exploded in growth due to unforseen consequences of changing scope clause in your contract.
-Global alliances have come from behind and are threatening to take the bread-and-butter of international routes from mainline carriers

The list of threats goes on. Will going on strike to get higher wages solve these problems? If you make 20% more will this all go away? If you keep your head in the sand will Mommy make things better? Hell no...

The solution goes far beyond negotiating an iron clad scope clause, or getting a computer allowance added to the contract. I invite each and every one of you to do the following:

Dust off you old old logbook. The one from wayyy back when you used to fly 10 legs a day in the DC-3 through the pi$$ and $hit all day/night to exotic destinations like Des Moines and Syracuse while you shouted for more and smiled at every pretty girl in the terminal. Really dig deep in that memory bank and remember those days vividly.

It wasn't easy, but you for damn sure loved it. Boys, those days and that attitude have GOT to come back.

Most newbie regional pilots see senior mainline pilots as those who have no guts, no balls, no drive, no ambition, no work ethic, and no memory of what it means to really put in a days worth of flying. It stings to hear that I am sure, because you HAVE been through it all and have forgotten more about flying than most have ever known.

This isnt about going on strike, or trying to show management who is the boss. This is about YOU watching your jobs being taken by those who are willing to work harder than you because you aren't going to get down in the trenches and WORK harder than the next guy. Quit the b1tching about who did what and prove us all wrong, or watch LCCs, regionals, and foreign carriers show you how it is done.

I understand this is an emotional issue for you, but could you provide specific examples of that? I'm not sure any of that is true.

As far as 'flying they never did', can you imagine how MidEx pilots flying MD88s/717s felt when RAH came in, and systematically replaced ALL their flying on ALL their routes with E-190s and RAH pilots? It could happen again, trust me. The more AMR Eagle grows, the less markets/flights AA has and the smaller the number of mainline jet jobs for aspiring pilots to apply for. It could even result in furloughs.

Actually, it's not that an emotional issue for me at all.

I understand COMPLETELY how MidEx pilots feel (a couple I know were there and former Eagle), but RAH pilots didn't do that, MidEx management did. Now, what's occuring regarding the seniority list issue is disturbing and not right, but this isn't the same situation.

Eagle orginally was born of perhaps 8 or so regional carriers with their own routes, colors, management, uniforms etc. This was back in the 80's before AA mangagement said "hey, lets align THEIR operations to benefit ours". The APA said, "sure, it makes business sense and we aren't interested in flying turboprops around to smaller cities, so as long as we have a clause that says they cannot fly xxx-size aircraft, it's o.k.with us".

Over time, your management abused this situation USING us. We (as pilots) have no say..............never have. Perhaps 1/3 of our flying ALWAYS was ours, 1/3 was yours given to us outside our control and the remaining 1/3 are newer routes previously flown by neither of our groups, but given to us to "develop" either to grow that market into something to support an AA aircraft or something that will not, but benefit AA by feed revenue. Most of us (myself included) would be happy to return your flying to you (it was yours to begin with), but that's not what the APA wants. They want to seize control of ALL of it and paternalistically deal with us as they see fit, seeing us not as fellow pilots and collegues, but as kids, hobbyists and/or wannabes unworthy of respect. Whether its declarations that AA pilots not be required to deadhead on Eagle aircraft or F. Lee Bailey declaring us unfit to operate jet aircraft, we've seen and heard enough. Of course, we're not all going to just quit and go on unemployment as that would be unrealistic.

The size of the carrier is immaterial when its pilot union is formally advocating the seizure of another carriers aircraft and flying. Those here who ARE emotional have somehow turned the reality of our conundrum upside down to rationalize the right to do this claiming that US (as pilots) and/or our union are doing the same. We are not and Eagle ALPA has not.

The 3 differences between the highlighted carriers and AA are correct; Regarding the first 2, the APA is advocating the seizure of all our planes and ops FIRST and then intends to deal with the disposition of our pilots SECOND with the ideal that it will be THEM that controls any such process and you can be sure, in their eyes, the APA will expect favoritism toward their native pilots regarding the unilateral seizure of our carrier (which really is what it is). This is the same as the above carriers and even OUR carrier (carriers brought in to perform anothers flying) except those carriers (and us) have not (to my knowledge) publicly and formally demanded any other carriers ENTIRE operation, thus they do not "believe that the airline world revolves around them and their interests" nor officially believe that "all flying is theirs unless they say otherwise".

Several points need to be reiterated here;

1. The APA has the right to demand THEIR flying back and most Eagle pilots agree.
2. The APA's concerns about limiting Eagle in size and future growth at their expense is understandable and proper.
3. Eagle has the right to its original flying as well and should not be subject to the tyranny of the APA for their self-serving purposes and their lust for complete domination.
4. It's in both sides interest that Flying that cannot be flown competitively by mainline AA ops, be allowed at Eagle as long as there are controls and tangible benefit for the pilots of AA.

The point of my post(s) on this issue are to counter the rabid dogs on this forum who continually howl how it's the PILOTS of Eagle who are the problem. They are misguided and correction is necessary, IMO. It is THEY that have allowed their emotion to aggrivate an already painful situation to fester.

Amen brother. They came in and took it and now have locked us out with no desire to absorb us. The longer they can delay, the more jobs are filled by RAH and F9 crews while the Midex pilots sit at home and type on computers in forums like this. Think about that next time they want your scope. Management now has a tool, code sharing, they can use to manipulate contracts. We lost our jobs because of it. You Eagle guys can say what you want but not one RAH pilot has stood up and said, "What about the guys we replaced?"

This is apples and oranges. What you fail to see is that AMR owns both AA and EGL. If some bull $hit like this were to happen, it would be at AMR's doing not ours.

Again, most of us do support scope and AA, but we're not gonna sit around and take the blame for some crap that happend looong before some of us got here and was beyond any of our control.

There isn't one EGL pilot that stands up in any of the planning meetings and says 'We'll do the flying if they don't wanna'. You can't throw stones when you live in a glass house (not meaning the MidEx vs RAH).

Like the previous post, stop *****'n and man up!

I'm not saying I know what it is like between your two pilot groups. I don't. I am saying that even if you do not have a say to management about where they send you and whose routes you fly, you can at least show support for the plight of those whose jobs you are encroaching upon. RAH pilots said nothing, did nothing and to this day have remained mute. It is up to the individual as to what you would label a "replacement" worker, I'll refrain since I am close to being kicked off this forum anyway. But, showing your support would greatly improve the working relationship for both groups.

In our case, support is a byproduct of respect. If you expect to get one, you have to acknowledge the other.................we'd been dragged trough the mud long before our first RJ had been assigned the first of AA's former routes.

Amen here as well, brother.

The APA wants to "come in and take it"............ALL of it and has little desire to absorb us.............well, perhaps preferential interviews for RJ F/O positions when their furloughees have vacated them.

The bottom 2/3 of our senioirty list would be kicked to the curb MidEx style in a heartbeat.

You see ?

We're not so different after all.....................

I may be wrong but didn't Eagle have a "flow up" agreement with AA long before there was a flow down? I think you also have to look at "Career Expectation" in this thing. Is your desire to one day fly an AA 777 or 757, or, is your desire to keep flying an RJ? If it is the latter, you are doing it. If you want to move up in life and take their seats, do it like we all did. Apply and get hired. If not, when you are forced to take those jobs, at least acknowledge that you do not support management. It's that easy. In our case, RAH crews took our flying without one word on our behalf to their management. They couldn't look us in the eyes and when deadheading, they would slink down in the back like we didn't know they were there. Again, I have no idea of the relationship between AA and Eagle and I don't want to know when it all comes down to it. I do know that the Regional crews have got to start taking a stand when it comes to taking over mainline routes.

Oh, I see....I tell you what, if that was our situation, many of us would say something. Problem is, would our union take a stand? All we could do is voice our opinions to our union reps. I support AA and scope. 70 seat jets should always be our max. But our parent company will do what it wants if it really wants to push the issue. Scope or no scope.

Either way, APA had a chance to prevent this from happening long before I got here and didn't. Now it's time for them to either man-up or shut-up and color.

.............................