AA pilots will sign a concessionary contract
11-18-2009 | 10:59 AM
#61
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What "more realistic" scenario do you envision? Sometime ago (late 1998 or 99 I believe) AA put on the table a proposal for a commuter supplement with the stipulation that a tripartite agreement be reached with EGL on seniority. Although I can't say the idea was overly popular with AA pilots, I can say EGL ALPA leadership wasn't overly warm to it. Too bad because that may have been the best opportunity to have fixed this mess.
Fast forward to today: Suppose AMR decides to revisit the sale of EGL? Maybe a public offering in conjunction with an agreement with APA to fly 90 to 110 seater's? After all, if we are to believe the rumors that many EGL flow through pilots no longer want their AA senior numbers, maybe our furloughees want them instead. On the other hand, there are plenty of furloughees that would not come back to an RJ position at current market rates.
Surely this could be a realistic scenario: which would represent a combination of both RJ flying at AA and EGL as a separate entity competing with the likes of RAH.
Fast forward to today: Suppose AMR decides to revisit the sale of EGL? Maybe a public offering in conjunction with an agreement with APA to fly 90 to 110 seater's? After all, if we are to believe the rumors that many EGL flow through pilots no longer want their AA senior numbers, maybe our furloughees want them instead. On the other hand, there are plenty of furloughees that would not come back to an RJ position at current market rates.
Surely this could be a realistic scenario: which would represent a combination of both RJ flying at AA and EGL as a separate entity competing with the likes of RAH.
11-18-2009 | 11:00 AM
#62
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What are the chances that a modified flowthrough will result from the negotiations underway now over the recent arbitration ruling? Captains were displaced and FO's furloughed, and everyone has suffered QOL/pay issues as a result. What if everyone now at Eagle (including furloughs) was offered a one-time, take-it-or-leave-it option to flow through to AA as a remedy? Ideas?
11-18-2009 | 11:02 AM
#63
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Anythings possible. At first APA didn't want anything to do with EGL, then when it looked like APA was changing their mind, EGL ALPA didn't want anything to do with APA or AA. All the players have to be on the same page if anything like this has a chance of working--right now they are not and it doesn't appear that they are moving toward it either. Personally, I think all the flying RJ and otherwise should be done by one company. Whether that's EGL merging with AA, or APA doing all of it or most of it.
To me, it seems foolish to spread flying in a single network among several regional affiliates. If you were to believe all the crap pouring from Wall Street financiers and corporate board rooms about the "synergies" of combining airlines, then why would airline managements pursue arrangements which would spread the work over several more departments than necessary? i.e. every airline has it's own dispatch, it's own maintenance, it's own scheduling staff, etc. Even though regional employees don't enjoy the same level of compensation as their mainline counterparts--it's difficult to reconcile having many more lower paid employees than fewer better paid folks doing more work.
Jet Blue doesn't farm out it's 100 seat flying, SWA doesn't even have a regional affiliate--both airlines are fairly successful. Coincidence?
To me, it seems foolish to spread flying in a single network among several regional affiliates. If you were to believe all the crap pouring from Wall Street financiers and corporate board rooms about the "synergies" of combining airlines, then why would airline managements pursue arrangements which would spread the work over several more departments than necessary? i.e. every airline has it's own dispatch, it's own maintenance, it's own scheduling staff, etc. Even though regional employees don't enjoy the same level of compensation as their mainline counterparts--it's difficult to reconcile having many more lower paid employees than fewer better paid folks doing more work.
Jet Blue doesn't farm out it's 100 seat flying, SWA doesn't even have a regional affiliate--both airlines are fairly successful. Coincidence?
It isn't and unlikely ever will be.
11-18-2009 | 11:08 AM
#64
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The APA's proposal is to take ALL AE flying, even flying THEY NEVER DID, therefore AA is also no different than Republic, Gojet, CHQ or TSA etc. Well, actually there are THREE differences.
1. Many there believe that the airline world revolves around them and their interests.
2. ALL flying is their's unless they say otherwise.
2. They fly larger aircraft then the above similar carriers.
11-18-2009 | 11:12 AM
#65
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These decisions were made by AMR, but they did have one helper.................the bumbling incompetence of the APA.
AE pilots fly what they're assigned.
99% of the AE pilots aren't blaming CHQ pilots for what A-M-R wants to do, but it's always the same old garbage about those evil AE pilots sitting down with Arpey and crafting agreements to steal AA pilot jobs.
A pathetic broken record it's becoming.
Last edited by eaglefly; 11-18-2009 at 01:04 PM.
11-18-2009 | 11:23 AM
#66
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The reason is it's too painful to blame the real culprit.........The labor group that ALLOWED their jobs to be "outsourced". That labor entity itself has also smashed all their mirrors, so they don't have to face themselves and they too are blaming others. The remedy is to regain not just all the flying they "lost", but everything else they themselves can steal.
Pot...........................meet Kettle.
Pot...........................meet Kettle.
11-18-2009 | 11:24 AM
#67
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I
At one point we were restricted to JetStreams. Then got scope lifted for Saab 340s. Then got scope lifted for ATRs. Then got scope lifted for E-135s. Then 140s. Then 145s. Then 25 CRJ-700s. Now additional 22 CRJs. Whats next guys? Its your scope and union. Please dont give sour looks at Eagle pilots. We just work here.
At one point we were restricted to JetStreams. Then got scope lifted for Saab 340s. Then got scope lifted for ATRs. Then got scope lifted for E-135s. Then 140s. Then 145s. Then 25 CRJ-700s. Now additional 22 CRJs. Whats next guys? Its your scope and union. Please dont give sour looks at Eagle pilots. We just work here.
11-18-2009 | 01:39 PM
#68
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Is that what you or any other young pilot 'paying their dues' want? Do you want to be a regional pilot forever or do you want to fly at the major airlines? Because rest assured, if regionals keep expanding, and swallowing up mainline routes, there won't be any major airline jobs to aspire to.
No, that's not what I want and I completly agree. However, like AA, EGL has a right to exist. The only issue I have is folks saying we, they, or you are stealing. We (AA/EGL) only do what we are told. AMR is a business and will do what ever it takes to survive no matter what we think. We also gotta remember, a pilot group can kill an airline.
This is a game and we all need to learn how to play. We have to choose our battles wisely fellas.
11-18-2009 | 02:05 PM
#69
SDQ Base Chief
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: 320 CA
I have sympathy for the APA pilots, I honestly do. They have been in the industry a long time and have seen some incredible highs and all the amazing opportunities this industry has offered. They have been the Kings of the skies, flown the best aircraft all over the world while making a very comfortable paycheck and working a gentleman's schedule.
Unfortunately, the industry(hell, the whole country) has changed dramatically. Wal-mart, fast food, globalization, economic crisis, 9/11, etc. The Golden Age of aviation is far behind us and it isnt easy to let that go (even for us who never experienced it) but we all have to let go of the past, seriously, and focus on how we can make the most of the future however scary it will be.
Look around the industry and it is easy to see the REAL threats that we as AMR pilots should be focusing on...
-Low Cost Carriers have invaded every major city taking leisure travelers (and now business pax) from AA.
-Eagle has exploded in growth due to unforseen consequences of changing scope clause in your contract.
-Global alliances have come from behind and are threatening to take the bread-and-butter of international routes from mainline carriers
The list of threats goes on. Will going on strike to get higher wages solve these problems? If you make 20% more will this all go away? If you keep your head in the sand will Mommy make things better? Hell no...
The solution goes far beyond negotiating an iron clad scope clause, or getting a computer allowance added to the contract. I invite each and every one of you to do the following:
Dust off you old old logbook. The one from wayyy back when you used to fly 10 legs a day in the DC-3 through the pi$$ and $hit all day/night to exotic destinations like Des Moines and Syracuse while you shouted for more and smiled at every pretty girl in the terminal. Really dig deep in that memory bank and remember those days vividly.
It wasn't easy, but you for damn sure loved it. Boys, those days and that attitude have GOT to come back.
Most newbie regional pilots see senior mainline pilots as those who have no guts, no balls, no drive, no ambition, no work ethic, and no memory of what it means to really put in a days worth of flying. It stings to hear that I am sure, because you HAVE been through it all and have forgotten more about flying than most have ever known.
This isnt about going on strike, or trying to show management who is the boss. This is about YOU watching your jobs being taken by those who are willing to work harder than you because you aren't going to get down in the trenches and WORK harder than the next guy. Quit the b1tching about who did what and prove us all wrong, or watch LCCs, regionals, and foreign carriers show you how it is done.
Unfortunately, the industry(hell, the whole country) has changed dramatically. Wal-mart, fast food, globalization, economic crisis, 9/11, etc. The Golden Age of aviation is far behind us and it isnt easy to let that go (even for us who never experienced it) but we all have to let go of the past, seriously, and focus on how we can make the most of the future however scary it will be.
Look around the industry and it is easy to see the REAL threats that we as AMR pilots should be focusing on...
-Low Cost Carriers have invaded every major city taking leisure travelers (and now business pax) from AA.
-Eagle has exploded in growth due to unforseen consequences of changing scope clause in your contract.
-Global alliances have come from behind and are threatening to take the bread-and-butter of international routes from mainline carriers
The list of threats goes on. Will going on strike to get higher wages solve these problems? If you make 20% more will this all go away? If you keep your head in the sand will Mommy make things better? Hell no...
The solution goes far beyond negotiating an iron clad scope clause, or getting a computer allowance added to the contract. I invite each and every one of you to do the following:
Dust off you old old logbook. The one from wayyy back when you used to fly 10 legs a day in the DC-3 through the pi$$ and $hit all day/night to exotic destinations like Des Moines and Syracuse while you shouted for more and smiled at every pretty girl in the terminal. Really dig deep in that memory bank and remember those days vividly.
It wasn't easy, but you for damn sure loved it. Boys, those days and that attitude have GOT to come back.
Most newbie regional pilots see senior mainline pilots as those who have no guts, no balls, no drive, no ambition, no work ethic, and no memory of what it means to really put in a days worth of flying. It stings to hear that I am sure, because you HAVE been through it all and have forgotten more about flying than most have ever known.
This isnt about going on strike, or trying to show management who is the boss. This is about YOU watching your jobs being taken by those who are willing to work harder than you because you aren't going to get down in the trenches and WORK harder than the next guy. Quit the b1tching about who did what and prove us all wrong, or watch LCCs, regionals, and foreign carriers show you how it is done.
Last edited by IC ALL; 11-18-2009 at 04:03 PM. Reason: profanity
11-18-2009 | 02:06 PM
#70
AAmerican Way for AA Pay
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,617
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From: B-737 Pilot
.........and like wise it could be said that AA pilots would steal an AE pilots job if they cound in a heartbeat. In fact..................THEY ARE TRYING !
The APA's proposal is to take ALL AE flying, even flying THEY NEVER DID, therefore AA is also no different than Republic, Gojet, CHQ or TSA etc. Well, actually there are THREE differences.
1. Many there believe that the airline world revolves around them and their interests.
2. ALL flying is their's unless they say otherwise.
2. They fly larger aircraft then the above similar carriers.
The APA's proposal is to take ALL AE flying, even flying THEY NEVER DID, therefore AA is also no different than Republic, Gojet, CHQ or TSA etc. Well, actually there are THREE differences.
1. Many there believe that the airline world revolves around them and their interests.
2. ALL flying is their's unless they say otherwise.
2. They fly larger aircraft then the above similar carriers.
As far as 'flying they never did', can you imagine how MidEx pilots flying MD88s/717s felt when RAH came in, and systematically replaced ALL their flying on ALL their routes with E-190s and RAH pilots? It could happen again, trust me. The more AMR Eagle grows, the less markets/flights AA has and the smaller the number of mainline jet jobs for aspiring pilots to apply for. It could even result in furloughs.
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